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JW,
Nice playing on Footprints. Kind of a different side of you. Sounds like you had a lot of fun there.

Wind,
Dave Frank describes some of these solo piano techniques in the 15 elements for the advanced jazz pianist.
Also the Bill Evans class has solo piano technique, and I think this one is described as "2 hit". 2 and 3 hits are very nice simple arrangement techniques that Keith uses a lot.
Of course, Keith has this voicing ability that's out of this world, but the idea is well described there.

Sharing with you this video that was shot a couple of months ago, maybe early July. I didn't realize this was being taped and I'm obviously goofing around ... but I thought you might enjoy seeing me being silly. (that's an understatement now).
I have very little recollection of that evening. Lots have happen since then (including jazz camp). I don't think I was drunk because I never drink on a gig.

The video came like that from facebook. Cut out the way it is.

[video:youtube]EbtXTwiVHY0[/video]

Now that we all laughed pretty good, I'll ask a question that I already asked a couple of years ago (time flies).

I was just watching the bill evans interview again (thanks Jjo for the trigger).
Bill says that when he got to a certain age, he started analyzing tunes harmonically, so that he could play without sheet. That's a very interesting statement. Probably obvious to most here.
"Analyze so that you can play without sheet".
So I understand that the process of memorizing tunes is really tied to harmonic analysis.

I am 100% guilty of that. I've memorized many tunes, but only a handful can I play in any key. And the melody would probably be wrong.
I'm not even talking about the "hard keys". If you know a tune in -say- F, C, Bb, Eb and G, it seems reasonable to think that you do know the tune. And it's nearly impossible to do for lots of tunes unless those tunes are understood harmonically.

Many tunes are very similar. Beyond the form, even the modulations and movements are often typical. Yet, almost all "good" tunes will have some clever way to do something.

Take Skylark (been getting a lot of attention on the forum thanks to our friend here). Beautiful melody. The A section is really nothing but a chord movement in F (say you play in F). There's no modulation there. Just ways to go from the 1 to the 4 and back.
Skylark in F
We have a movement starting at the root and moving diatonically up to the 4th. Then back to the one, and then a b5 setup to go down chromatically.
So you'll have F followed by some kind of an B (either diminished or 7 with a #11). Then, as you'd expect, you go down to Bb, A-.
Next you'd think Ab but instead comes the tritone which does D- to G7. And that sets us up to the 2-5 turnaround back in F.
In the last 2 measures, we have a typical 1-6-2-5, but the 6 is minor, instead of what you might expect, dominant. (same as Miss Jones).

Ok, so now I have to memorize all this, and actually apply it if I'm going to play it in Bb.

Is that how you might memorize it?

Wind,

Yes, resolving the C to the B in the chords you mention is totally a good voice leading example. And that's great playing in that KJ video. A little voice leading, a beautiful singing tone, and smartly-placed pedal can go far.

Nothing all that goofy. The rest of the band was actually acting stiff. Loved the way you would sing the lines. I didn't figure out it was Sugar till the head was played. Your articulation has changed btw. Liking your sound a lot. Are you mostly on EP?

I did Sugar at my last gig too but I didn't like my solo.

I don't really spend a lot of time worrying about transposing tunes in any key. But the good news is that there are hardly any new progressions to encounter in the majority of the tunes i've played. Because I'm always playing with singers, I'm constantly changing keys (using iRealB) and although I may not remember the whole tune, I certainly remember the progression and I don't even avoid E, A, D, F# anymore either.

So whether I've planned it or not, clearly, I have already memorized portions of lots of tunes in lots of keys.

Although it may be difficult to think of a tune horizontally without deep study of a tune, a quicky vertical approach (chord by chord) is something that requires no real thought anymore. By the time I see the approaching chord, I have some idea what to play (which of course is to outline the harmony).

On simple ii-V-I tunes, do we really need to over analyze further?

But to really delve into even the simplest harmonic structures like minor blues for example, something I commonly play, is really difficult. At least it is difficult to sound profound.

I'd really like to spend more time just focusing on simple progressions and just figuring out a way to make a real statement and not just "make the changes".

I like Chris' approach from the Camp. Just play with a single chord for a week.

>>Nothing all that goofy. The rest of the band was actually acting stiff. smile Loved the way you would sing the lines. I didn't figure out it was Sugar till the head was played. Your articulation has changed btw. Liking your sound a lot. Are you mostly on EP?

Thanks JW.
I play half piano (AP) and half electric. if the sound gets loud, I find the EP easier to hear and cut through. But it changes the left hand dramatically.
If I play trio, then I would play almost only AP.

If the volume is low and the acoustic in the room is decent, then I prefer the AP. For example, I can almost not at all do an intro with EP, whereas I'll more easily do a solo intro with AP.
And sometimes I change mid-song bank and forth.

I'd rather play an out of tune upright any day though.

JW,

I have a somewhat different approach than you do.

I like and enjoy playing tunes I haven't played before, many times just because I like the "fresh" changes and "fresh" melodies.
But I can't sound anything like I'd want to on a new tune. Often I hum along my solos. On a new tune, I'd almost never do it.

And I'll go even further to say that a tune I could play the first time through is probably not a tune worth playing.

I also don't really care about playing in weird keys. The few singers I played with were kind enough to either play the common key or a far away "easy" key. I haven't had to play Ipanema in E so far...
But I don't think memorizing chord changes is the way.

Someone care to do the roman numeral on the first 8 bars of Skylark? I'll give you the changes:
F A- | G- Bb7 | F B7#11 | Bbmaj7 A- |
D- G7 | G- C7 | F D- | G- C7|

Just curious though, Knots. If you see the changes to Skylark for the first time and play through it, do you really try to analyze it? I don't. I think I've abandoned the theory already.

I see those changes and I just see the notes available for me to play, pretty much immediately, specifically the harmonic outline.

I also see the common tones.

I used to study this so deeply but have since realized that I just need to come up with melodies over this. But I tend to look at it generically, i.e. as a progression and not this particular tune.

Have I regressed? Or have I gone too practical? Hammer away.

I'm not sure you really mean this the way its coming across. Any tune can be played by good players a number of ways ranging from harmonically sparse and rhythmically straight forward ranging to altering everything and everything until virtually unrecognizable.



These aren't the changes I've seen, but then again maybe I've just played the tune for so long and have adapted and changed what I've liked that I've forgotten the original. In any case, I'd still look at most of this as either I, V7, ii or vi with their doms and subs.

I guess when I approach tunes I'm concerned with two separate things that you've pointed out: that there are commonalities between most tunes AND that there is something unique to each tune that the others don't possess. Striking the balance between the two is an ongoing project for most songs for me.

hey knotty, do you have the video links for the DFrank or Evans techniques? I would like to check it out.
2 hit, sounds like an interesting name, I will try to get more info on it.

>>Just curious though, Knots. If you see the changes to Skylark for the first time and play through it, do you really try to analyze it? I don't. I think I've abandoned the theory already.

If I have to play it on the spot because someone called it, I dive in it and try to do as much analysis as quickly as I can. Need to make sure I got form, sections, repeats, coda, tricks. As quick as possible. That's just to be able to make it. But guaranteed it won't sound the way I want.

>>I'm not sure you really mean this the way its coming across. Any tune can be played by good players a number of ways ranging from harmonically sparse and rhythmically straight forward ranging to altering everything and everything until virtually unrecognizable.
They can be played, but... there's another level when you've played the tune for a long time. Like my buddy told me, you want those tunes that someone is going to call, like Out of Nowhere, and be able to think "Ok buddy, I got you". Anyone can play out of nowhere the first time around. But if you play it night after night for an extended period of time, now you got it.


>>I used to study this so deeply but have since realized that I just need to come up with melodies over this. But I tend to look at it generically, i.e. as a progression and not this particular tune.
yes . I think so. I think you need to continue to pick tunes and study them for an extended period of time. And I know you do that. But I don't just mean the tough tunes. You should see what Liebman does to Byy Bye Blackbird. I mean that tune is pretty easy and trivial, but I'm quite sure when I heard liebman play itm it wasn't his first time paying it.

Take Bill Evans. How many tunes did he play, really?

I had a buddy that use to tell me he'd never play a tune out unless he had played it for at least a year.


>> Striking the balance between the two is an ongoing project for most songs for me.
And so patterns emerge.

OK, I shall be patient :-)

Wind,

I think this is the class where he talks about the 2 hit / 3 hit.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vpRpAShR9lQ

But the prob is that I may be wrong.

Maybe if he drops by he can tell us for sure which masterclass it was in. I remember specifically the blossom pattern form the Bill Evans class.

hey knotty, as for harmonic analysis on a tune like Skylark or many jazz standards, I don't even try to think of chord progression. I just break down the form to see where the modulations are. For the 2-5-1 stuff what I do is practice the specific key and figure out any substitution chords I like.

I find as soon as I over think while playing, that moment is already gone. The brain can't actively handle that much. I just focus on melody and the left hand is almost on autopilot.

Now on tunes with unusual changes, say Stella by Starlight, I'd have to break down each part and memorize the chords first and piece them together bit by bit.

knotty, can you give an example of what 2/3 hit is? Like which notes on the chord and how to play it. I will check out the videos now.

I believe the 2 hit is what I heard in the KJ bit you posted.
Dave has very many categories of arrangement techniques so it is possible I am mis-categorizing it.

However, it is a stylistic thing, the fact that you hold down the bottom note, typically the root and then play another layer while typically holding down the bottom note. So 1 5 7, 1 5 10,
If you do
C then GE, that would be 2 hits.
If you do C then G then E, that woudl be 3 hits.

Typically 2 8ths notes then 1/4 note or 2 1/4 then a 1/2.

I have lots of written arrangements that showcase this, I can maybe scan a piece later and post so you see what I mean by 2 or 3 hits.

Simple but works great.

I see what you mean. I use that technique already, just didn't have a proper name for it.

So instead of playing chords as blocks or all at once, you outline it with the bass or a pedal point first.

Jarrett does that alot and I try to copy him! Although my hands aren't as big, so I can't do a C - G - E over an octave without releasing the first note.

And from what I've heard. never does Jarrett.

talking of Skylark, here is my version...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K2j4IHB6W9g

sad to hear today about Cedar Walton, I got to play piano duets with him once. It was awesome

Cedar Walton -- oh my. That's a surprise. He's one I haven't seen. I've seen Mulgrew Miller many times, in contrast.