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Re: 3 2/3 over 4 time signature [Re: Michael Sayers] #2132906
08/14/13 05:09 PM
08/14/13 05:09 PM
Joined: Nov 2007
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Nikolas Offline
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Derulux: That's what I said. Make them regular 32nds (8 per beat, and not 12) and thus the whole bar into a 5/4! wink

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Re: 3 2/3 over 4 time signature [Re: Nikolas] #2132962
08/14/13 07:36 PM
08/14/13 07:36 PM
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Derulux Offline
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Originally Posted by Nikolas
Derulux: That's what I said. Make them regular 32nds (8 per beat, and not 12) and thus the whole bar into a 5/4! wink

Ah, bugger! I completely missed the first page. (Thought the image on the 2nd page was the first post, and didn't look at what page I was actually on.) Sorry to repeat what was already said..

Also, I think Kreisler has a solid point for 11/8, given the 12-note 32nd note runs, rather than 8-note. But I still stand by what I said, that, at a faster speed, it will be impossible to separate the octave run into duple/triple time to hear those minor beats, and that the audience will likely only hear a swell-and-ebb from the bottom to the top, and back to the bottom. All the more reason to simplify the time signature.

I do understand, conceptually, why 3.666.../4 might be preferred, because in the later 4/4 time, you have triplets, but I think for the sake of readability/accessibility, it may be easier/simpler for the performer to read in a simpler time signature. I would much prefer 11/8 to 3.666.../4, but I would prefer even more to see it in 5/4, given that what comes later is in 4/4 and not in 12/8.


Might I ask what is the tempo of this piece? q = 80 max? Guessing 60-66 because it's a little more playable.. unless you took the octaves on the half-beat, so the top of the run hit on the off-beat between chords. Then, I could see a slightly faster tempo, but probably not too much faster.. maybe up to 92? But, I mean, that's really pushing the tempo to virtually unplayable..


Every day we are afforded a new chance. The problem with life is not that you run out of chances. In the end, what you run out of are days.
Re: 3 2/3 over 4 time signature [Re: Derulux] #2133149
08/15/13 03:23 AM
08/15/13 03:23 AM
Joined: Feb 2013
Posts: 2,352
Stockholm, Sweden
Michael Sayers Offline OP
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Michael Sayers  Offline OP
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Originally Posted by Derulux

Might I ask what is the tempo of this piece? q = 80 max? Guessing 60-66 because it's a little more playable.. unless you took the octaves on the half-beat, so the top of the run hit on the off-beat between chords. Then, I could see a slightly faster tempo, but probably not too much faster.. maybe up to 92? But, I mean, that's really pushing the tempo to virtually unplayable..


The tempo would be up to the performer (how many pianists can do bar 45 at qurter note = 92?).

The first page is marked quarter note = 46.5 - I realize that may be on the slow side, hence it isn't marked "Tempo di marcia", but all interpretation of music is up to the performer including the tempo!

Your are right, and a half-beat rest in constant terms is closer to what I would do (not a full one beat rest, and some some slight pause before beat one of the next bar for marcato emphasis), maybe this interpretative approach with beats themselves shorter or longer is not something that would be ideal to notate?

And with bar 45, maybe that would go straight into bar 46 with minimum delay?

M.

Re: 3 2/3 over 4 time signature [Re: Michael Sayers] #2133237
08/15/13 08:21 AM
08/15/13 08:21 AM
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Iowa City, IA
Kreisler Offline
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Quarter note = 46.5??????

Why? No metronome on the planet is that specific.


"If we continually try to force a child to do what he is afraid to do, he will become more timid, and will use his brains and energy, not to explore the unknown, but to find ways to avoid the pressures we put on him." (John Holt)

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Re: 3 2/3 over 4 time signature [Re: Michael Sayers] #2133310
08/15/13 10:38 AM
08/15/13 10:38 AM
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Derulux Offline
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I think the desire for specificity is actually detracting from the ability to correctly interpret what's on the page. It gets to a point where the pianist must actually disregard what's on the page in order to play it.

(For example - disregarding the quarter note rest in order to play the swell starting on the half beat, which you said you would also do. Consequently, it's what I heard, but I tried to conceptualize it both ways, since you did write a quarter rest.)

No pianist on Earth will specifically play q = 46.5. Won't happen. Ever. Might I ask why you're trying to be so specific with it?


In regard to measure 45 -- I would honestly expect the performer to completely disregard tempo in that measure and play it more like a cadenza. The pattern in the measure has "more than 4 beats". So, it really won't matter what the tempo is. wink


EDIT: I think much of what I'm trying to say is that it sounds like you're trying to make it as difficult as possible for the sake of making it as difficult as possible. The notes themselves are already a challenge at up-tempos. Why are you (seemingly intentionally) making it so hard to find the beat?

Last edited by Derulux; 08/15/13 10:41 AM.

Every day we are afforded a new chance. The problem with life is not that you run out of chances. In the end, what you run out of are days.
Re: 3 2/3 over 4 time signature [Re: Michael Sayers] #2133332
08/15/13 11:10 AM
08/15/13 11:10 AM
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Nikolas Offline
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And here's where we're slowly coming to my comments: Michael is trying to ultra control the performance of the score, and as such he's putting various details like the q = 46.5, or the 3.666/4 bars, or the R, and R-p above single notes.

Re: 3 2/3 over 4 time signature [Re: Michael Sayers] #2133369
08/15/13 12:10 PM
08/15/13 12:10 PM
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synergy543 Offline
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I'm saving this thread as it epitomizes the ailment with so much modern music, why classical music is in decline, and why audiences are no longer interested.

Instead of discussing tempos with fractions, and beat divisions with remainders (which the composer reminds us goes on infinitely), maybe instead its time we ask ourselves what composing music is all about anyway? Is is about "anal"yzing notation amongst ourselves? Or is it about communicating and connecting with performers and ultimately with an audience? Well, this is certainly a topic for another thread, though perfectly primed by this one.

Re: 3 2/3 over 4 time signature [Re: synergy543] #2133390
08/15/13 12:58 PM
08/15/13 12:58 PM
Joined: Nov 2007
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Nikolas Offline
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Originally Posted by synergy543
I'm saving this thread as it epitomizes the ailment with so much modern music, why classical music is in decline, and why audiences are no longer interested.

Instead of discussing tempos with fractions, and beat divisions with remainders (which the composer reminds us goes on infinitely), maybe instead its time we ask ourselves what composing music is all about anyway? Is is about "anal"yzing notation amongst ourselves? Or is it about communicating and connecting with performers and ultimately with an audience? Well, this is certainly a topic for another thread, though perfectly primed by this one.
I think that there is a place for complicated music, and even more complicated notation.

Unfortunately Michaels' music is NOT suited for such tricks.

Re: 3 2/3 over 4 time signature [Re: Nikolas] #2133472
08/15/13 03:59 PM
08/15/13 03:59 PM
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 5,446
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Derulux Offline
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Originally Posted by Nikolas
Originally Posted by synergy543
I'm saving this thread as it epitomizes the ailment with so much modern music, why classical music is in decline, and why audiences are no longer interested.

Instead of discussing tempos with fractions, and beat divisions with remainders (which the composer reminds us goes on infinitely), maybe instead its time we ask ourselves what composing music is all about anyway? Is is about "anal"yzing notation amongst ourselves? Or is it about communicating and connecting with performers and ultimately with an audience? Well, this is certainly a topic for another thread, though perfectly primed by this one.
I think that there is a place for complicated music, and even more complicated notation.

Unfortunately Michaels' music is NOT suited for such tricks.

Exactly.. if you're trying to land a man on the moon, you'll need all the complex equipment the space shuttle has to offer. However, if you're trying to put a nail into a board, you don't need anything more than a hammer.


Every day we are afforded a new chance. The problem with life is not that you run out of chances. In the end, what you run out of are days.
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