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Re: How good can OEM pianos get?
Alex Hernandez #2132849 08/14/13 02:24 PM
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Alex,

That's "Count Reckless Rumormonger" to you. wink

I repeat, I was putting forward a hypothetical scenario, and was not insinuating anything.

By the way, I like the sound of the Bluthner grands that I have heard. I'm in the market for a grand piano right now, and the Bluthner Models 6, 4 and 2 are on my "short list" of pianos to be auditioned before I make my final purchase decision.

C'mon, let's be friends. smile

Last edited by Almaviva; 08/14/13 04:25 PM. Reason: typo
Re: How good can OEM pianos get?
ando #2132850 08/14/13 02:24 PM
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I understand what the OP was suggesting. And his alternative example accomplished his goal precisely.

I don't look at my response as defensive as much as a call for accuracy. Referring to Dr. Bluthner as "Chris" also demonstrates what I believe to be a regrettable choice in trying to make his point.

Ando, you can believe what ever you want as is your right. But if you are suggesting that a call for respect and accuracy means we are hiding something then you are on your own island. How does one disprove a negative?

I hope my contributions here inform. I encourage all things piano so lets turn this into a positive and be respectful to each other.

I don't believe that money and materials alone can make a world class instrument that can meet international standards of performance. I believe making an instrument that offers color, control and a great dynamic range where the pianist can control every shade and nuance is also the product of the craftsman. Their judgements in establishing precise relationships between the instruments components influence the musical outcome greatly.

In the end one must go out into the world and experience for themselves what each maker has to offer. Every time I come into contact with a person that has found their dream instrument my heart fills with joy for them, even if it is not a Bluthner. Finding that lifetime companion is such a joyous thing, it must be shared and celebrated.




Last edited by Alex Hernandez; 08/14/13 02:25 PM.



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Re: How good can OEM pianos get?
Almaviva #2132852 08/14/13 02:27 PM
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Originally Posted by Almaviva
Alex,

That's "Count Ruthless Rumormonger" to you. wink

I repeat, I was putting forward a hypothetical scenario, and was not insinuating anything.

By the way, I like the sound of the Bluthner grands that I have heard. I'm in the market for a grand piano right now, and the Bluthner Models 6, 4 and 2 are on my "short list" of pianos to be auditioned before I make my final purchase decision.

C'mon, let's be friends. smile


Friends? Okay, I'm in. wink




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Re: How good can OEM pianos get?
Almaviva #2132862 08/14/13 03:02 PM
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Alex, Almaviva has been coming into the forum for a while now asking hypothetical, but pointed, questions with annoying instructions on how to respond. - motives and interests are very ambiguous.

When I was enthusiastically asking too many questions to my first composition teacher, I was told, "David, I appreciate your questions. Please keep in mind that if you knew what questions to ask you wouldn't be here."

And then there is always the famous quote by Thomas Pynchon, "If they can get you by asking the wrong questions, they don't have to worry about the answers."

Enjoy!



"Imagine it in all its primatic colorings, its counterpart in our souls - our souls that are great pianos whose strings, of honey and of steel, the divisions of the rainbow set twanging, loosing on the air great novels of adventure!" - William Carlos Williams
Re: How good can OEM pianos get?
Alex Hernandez #2132881 08/14/13 03:59 PM
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Originally Posted by Alex Hernandez


Ando, you can believe what ever you want as is your right. But if you are suggesting that a call for respect and accuracy means we are hiding something then you are on your own island. How does one disprove a negative?



Alex, you are jumping to conclusions again. I'm not suggesting anything. I'm not asking you to prove a negative. I have no interest in rumour-mongering. I was merely suggesting that you shouldn't add to the strength of rumours by referencing them so vehemently - especially since they were never referred to in the first place by the OP, only by yourself. Clearly there has been some rumour that has irritated you, and that would explain your defensiveness, but I don't think it's even been mentioned on PW. Bluthner is a highly respected and revered brand. Nobody around here is seeking to mess with that. Let's just relax and take the discussion in good faith.

Re: How good can OEM pianos get?
Alex Hernandez #2132903 08/14/13 05:06 PM
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Originally Posted by Alex Hernandez
Folks,

Reckless rumor mongering is not something that should go by unaddressed regardless of one's good intentions. Nice to meet you OP.

I would encourage any person posing a hypothetical to be responsible in their examples.

We do make a Chinese piano, it's called an Irmler. Though Irmler pianos shipped to the States contain sufficient parts and finishing to be shipped as German made we don't trade on that and maintain total transparency regarding its Chinese origins.

Jolly,

I think it's hilarious that somebody would call me a chicken while using an alias.
Other then that I always enjoy your contributions and I hope all is well with you.



1. I didn't call you a chicken. Re-read what I wrote, it's an old Southern saying...it basically alludes to somebody firing a shot in the dark and see if they get a response. A vehement response usually means something akin to Baptists having sex - you know they're doing it, but they're just hard to catch at it.

Or, to put it another way, it may be artificially generated smoke, but you still look for the fire.

2. Jolly is my name.


TNCR. Over 20 years. Over 2,000,000 posts. And a new site...

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Re: How good can OEM pianos get?
Almaviva #2132919 08/14/13 05:37 PM
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You cannot make a great copy of the serious European pianos. The more specific the voice, the more true I think this is. So, actually, Bluthner might be the most difficult to reproduce because of its unique sound. It is probably not the best analogy, but it is a little like no one can make your Mom's meatloaf, or chicken soup other than your Mom. Even with the recipe. Even if it comes out really good, the more it reminds you of Mom's cooking, the more you notice that it is different and are inevitably dissapointed. OK, I don't want to hear about how your mother was a rotten cook!

I also don't think that current manufacturers think in terms of having a unique voice with lots of identifiable character. They think in terms of more objective things like getting the piano to work well and predictably. I think the mass produced pianos generally have a fairly generic sound and have had a generic sound for a long time. Oddly, I do think Yamaha has a more distinct sound than the other mass producers.

Generic is not necessarily bad. A generic sounding piano may still be sensitive and expressive and a piano with its own special voice may be expressively limited.

Actually, I think there has been a general movement towards generic sounding pianos the world over.



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Re: How good can OEM pianos get?
ando #2132945 08/14/13 07:00 PM
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Ando,

I think playing with somebody else's name and reputation in this way is, as I have said before "reckless" regardless of the innocent intentions. I wouldn't do it and if had been another maker used instead I would have reacted in the same way. I just don't think its nice to do something like that, and I spoke up based on a principle.

Jolly, My apologies. I thought Jolly was an alias. Is there a last name, first name or is just like Cher? j/k. My mother was from Mississippi and I have never heard that phrase before. But I hope you understand my confusion when you responded to my post by saying "Shucks...somebody took a shot through the chicken house and one of the chickens cackled loudly." as you referring to me as a "chicken". Lets just have a good laugh about it.

Keith, great post, well stated.

Thanks for the responses.

Once again please enjoy: ( Not necessarily related to the OP's original topic.)

http://www.pianos.de/en_bvk.html





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Re: How good can OEM pianos get?
Almaviva #2133060 08/14/13 09:15 PM
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Originally Posted by Almaviva
Originally Posted by Nick Mauel
Short Answer: They can get as good as a Brodmann (until now at least).


Careful, Nick. We might have to start calling you "Norbert Junior"! wink

Difference with me and Norbert is that my answers are shorter! Hope you didn't mind that on your thread.

Some of the known for better quality Chinese piano factories while producing good quality control parts do not have the level of designs for the actual pianos themselves that I am seeing from Brodmann.

Can you hear it in the following video example?:

[video:youtube]B2nFk2_dULs[/video]

Thanks,

Nick


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Re: How good can OEM pianos get?
Alex Hernandez #2133073 08/14/13 09:28 PM
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Originally Posted by Alex Hernandez
Ando,


Jolly, My apologies. I thought Jolly was an alias. Is there a last name, first name or is just like Cher? j/k. My mother was from Mississippi and I have never heard that phrase before. But I hope you understand my confusion when you responded to my post by saying "Shucks...somebody took a shot through the chicken house and one of the chickens cackled loudly." as you referring to me as a "chicken". Lets just have a good laugh about it.



Look back through Mom's family tree. My family moved from one side of the road to the other right after the Late War of Northern Aggression, but I have some distant cousins on the other side of Big Muddy.

You may be my long lost cousin (fourteen times removed). grin


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Re: How good can OEM pianos get?
Nick Mauel #2133083 08/14/13 09:45 PM
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Nick,

Very nice piano sound. And for once, the piano is in tune! You'd be amazed how many piano stores post videos on YouTube of their out-of-tune inventory, and expect people to appreciate the piano tone!

Re: How good can OEM pianos get?
Jolly #2133084 08/14/13 09:48 PM
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Actually my maternal grandmother is from New Orleans. From now on I'll think of you not as Jolly, but as a cousin. wink

I'm a Castilian hillbilly, that should explain a lot. Lol!

Last edited by Alex Hernandez; 08/14/13 09:49 PM.



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Re: How good can OEM pianos get?
Almaviva #2133088 08/14/13 09:51 PM
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Originally Posted by Almaviva
Nick,

Very nice piano sound. And for once, the piano is in tune! You'd be amazed how many piano stores post videos on YouTube of their out-of-tune inventory, and expect people to appreciate the piano tone!

Thank you very much. I can do a quick tuning and voicing myself if needed before making the video which definitely helps.


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Re: How good can OEM pianos get?
Almaviva #2133131 08/15/13 01:36 AM
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Originally Posted by Almaviva
Originally Posted by Nick Mauel
Short Answer: They can get as good as a Brodmann (until now at least).


Careful, Nick. We might have to start calling you "Norbert Junior"!


Edited by Almaviva (08/14/13 07:18 PM)
Edit Reason: punctuation


You edited this post for punctuation yet still managed to write '...We might have to start calling you "Norbert Junior"!'?

Re: How good can OEM pianos get?
Jean Claude #2133145 08/15/13 02:55 AM
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Yes. The exclamation point was originally placed inside the quotation marks, instead of outside them as it should have been.

Re: How good can OEM pianos get?
Nick Mauel #2133401 08/15/13 01:32 PM
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Reply to Nick Mauel. Wow that's about the best sounding paino I've ever heard; so clear and a constantness to the notes.

Re: How good can OEM pianos get?
Goof #2133421 08/15/13 02:13 PM
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Originally Posted by Goof
Reply to Nick Mauel. Wow that's about the best sounding paino I've ever heard; so clear and a constantness to the notes.

Thank you very much. The Brodmann pianos do have to be prepped but when done produce excellent results.

Here is another video of a smaller and much less expensive Brodmann that is also surprising:

[video:youtube]KbzAjaIsGhQ[/video]

Thanks,

Nick


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Re: How good can OEM pianos get?
Nick Mauel #2134201 08/17/13 04:48 AM
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Right!!
If you have the time what about making a video which compares the two.
If you were to go to a fair ammount of trouble i.e.
Play the same piece.
Use the same recording technique.
I personally would be fascinated to hear the difference between the two pianos.
As I "hear" from the second smaller piano it is no where near in clarity to the larger: BUT maybe this is due to "things" other than the instruments them selves??
Thanks in advance!!

Re: How good can OEM pianos get?
Nick Mauel #2134413 08/17/13 02:49 PM
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Originally Posted by Nick Mauel

Thank you very much. The Brodmann pianos do have to be prepped but when done produce excellent results.

Here is another video of a smaller and much less expensive Brodmann that is also surprising:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KbzAjaIsGhQ

Thanks,

Nick


Nice prep work Nick.

For comparison, this is a video made by Hugh Sung that features a 5'10" Cunningham. Hugh has had 20 years as a Curtis Institute prof. and is a collaborative pianist that is in demand in Philadelphia. He also owns AirTurn, a company that makes a silent momentary switch that can turn pages on electronic music without making any noise that might disturb a performance. He is probably using one in this video.

He made this video himself and has told me that between teaching and practice his piano has gotten many hours of play over the 5 years he has owned it. It is one thing for a piano to perform when new and it is another to perform well over time.

Obviously, the piano is well cared for but we are proud of the results.




The details on the new Cunningham can be seen on our website:

http://www.cunninghampiano.com/cunningham/

I am obviously biased, but I like the Cunningham more than I like many more expensive brands available. Read a few of the testimonials on our page. Some of the names may surprise you.


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Re: How good can OEM pianos get?
Almaviva #2134417 08/17/13 03:03 PM
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Here is the same model of Cunningham being used in performance at The Barnes Foundation, Philadelphia's newest art museum. The place is getting a tremendous amount of visitors and they hold regular recitals and concerts. It is a huge space to fill that is quite live, but the 5'10" does the job, I think.

To be fair, because of the music being played, this Cunningham is voiced a bit brighter than Hugh Sung's, but you will hear that immediately.



Great thread, Jolly. Thank you.


Rich Galassini
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