Welcome to the Piano World Piano Forums
Over 2.7 million posts about pianos, digital pianos, and all types of keyboard instruments
Join the World's Largest Community of Piano Lovers (it's free)
It's Fun to Play the Piano ... Please Pass It On!

SEARCH
Piano Forums & Piano World
(ad)
Best of Piano Buyer
 Best of Piano Buyer
(ad)
Piano Life Saver - Dampp Chaser
Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver
What's Hot!!
PIANO TEACHERS Please read this!
-------------------
European Tour for Piano Lovers
JOIN US FOR THE TOUR!
--------------------
Posting Pictures on the Forums
-------------------
Forums RULES & HELP
-------------------
ADVERTISE on Piano World
Find a Professional
Our Classified Ads
Find Piano Professionals-

*Piano Dealers - Piano Stores
*Piano Tuners
*Piano Teachers
*Piano Movers
*Piano Restorations
*Piano Manufacturers

Advertise on Piano World

Who's Online Now
143 registered members (alexk3954, AlphaBravoCharlie, 90125, Alex C, Andrew_G, Animisha, 8ude, anotherscott, accordeur, 35 invisible), 1,322 guests, and 3 spiders.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
(ad)
Estonia Pianos
Estonia Pianos
Quick Links to Useful Piano & Music Resources
Quick Links:
*Advertise On Piano World
*Free Piano Newsletter
*Online Piano Recitals
*Piano Recitals Index
*Piano & Music Accessories
*Live Piano Venues
*Music School Listings
* Buying a Piano
*Buying A Acoustic Piano
*Buying a Digital Piano
*Pianos for Sale
*Sell Your Piano
*How Old is My Piano?
*Directory/Site Map
*Virtual Piano
*Music Word Search
*Piano Videos
*Virtual Piano Chords & Scales
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Page 2 of 2 1 2
Re: How many repeats per day? [Re: Morodiene] #2125459
07/30/13 05:11 PM
07/30/13 05:11 PM
Joined: May 2012
Posts: 1,393
Cameron Park, California
Bobpickle Offline

Gold Supporter until July 10  2014
Bobpickle  Offline

Gold Supporter until July 10  2014


Joined: May 2012
Posts: 1,393
Cameron Park, California
.

Last edited by Bobpickle; 07/30/13 11:44 PM.

"[The trick to life isn't] just about living forever. The trick is still living with yourself forever."
(ad)
Piano & Music Accessories
piano accessories music gifts tuning and moving equipment
Re: How many repeats per day? [Re: lotal] #2125534
07/30/13 07:51 PM
07/30/13 07:51 PM
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 3,330
Australia
E
earlofmar Offline
3000 Post Club Member
earlofmar  Offline
3000 Post Club Member
E

Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 3,330
Australia
There seems to be an inherent resistance within us not to follow the Bernhard method. I was glad to have found it for it has changed the way I practice. For those of us lucky enough to have 2 - 4 (or more) free hours a day in which to spend with our piano, it feels easier to bash away again and again at the same piece or problem area. So it does take a bit of self restraint and trial and error to find and implement a practice regime to suit the individual.


Problems with piano are 90% psychological, the other 10% is in your head.

Kawai K8 & Kawai Novus NV10


13x[Linked Image]
[Linked Image]
Re: How many repeats per day? [Re: lotal] #2125538
07/30/13 08:02 PM
07/30/13 08:02 PM
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 16,462
Canada
keystring Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
keystring  Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 16,462
Canada
I dunno. When I read a suggestion by a teacher, I usually ask "What do you mean? Could you explain this further?" I agree with Morodiene but I am probably also understanding it differently. I am also not in love with terms like "scientific" to bolster something, especially for things like music.

Re: How many repeats per day? [Re: Bobpickle] #2125591
07/30/13 09:40 PM
07/30/13 09:40 PM
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 56
L
lotal Offline OP
Full Member
lotal  Offline OP
Full Member
L

Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 56
Originally Posted by Bobpickle
Originally Posted by lotal
I do not agree that "the evidence is clear".


You don't agree that the evidence is clear because you're viewing and trying to logically process the information through your prism of experience. You don't have to agree with or believe anything that anyone tells you. In fact, oftentimes with something like this, you shouldn't. What you should do, however, is try and better yet, test, the advice that's been given and compare it to any other method with which you're familiar. The fact is, the results aren't likely to be exactly the same and you'll come to realize that one method is clearly better than the other.

Originally Posted by Bernhard
1. The human brain learns by “chunks”, and then by joining these chunks into larger chunks. Anything that can be learned by repetition will be learned after seven repetitions. If after seven repetitions you have not learned the “chunk”, it means that the chunk was too large for the brain to handle. You must break it down into smaller chunks.

Let us say that you want to learn a poem with 200 verses. If you read the full 200 verses seven times, chances are that after seven times you will not have learned it. Most people who are not aware of what I am about to say, will just keep repeating the whole poem in the hope that by increasing the number of repeats they will eventually master it. Let us say that it takes 30 minutes to repeat aloud 200 verses. Repeating the poem seven times will take 3.5 hours, and at the end of it you will not have learned it. So you repeat another seven times. You still will not have learned it. So you do another seven times with the same dismal and pathetic result. Now you have been reading this poem for 10.5 hours. Do that for a whole month. I bet that at the end of the month, practicing 10.5 hours a day (21 repetitions) you still will not have learnt the poem. This is partly because you cannot fit enough repetitions in a day (the poem is simply too large), but also because if you have not learned after seven repetitions increasing the number of repetitions will not make any difference.

So what should you do? You must decrease the size of the chunk of information that you are trying to learn. How much should you decrease it? Well, start by cutting the poem in half: 100 verses. Now this takes only 15 minutes to read through. After seven repeats, did you learn it? If you did, this is the chunk size you can cope with. If not, the chunk size is still too large. So cut it in half again: 50 verses, which you can now read in 7.5 minutes. Now let us say that by cutting it in half and trying to learn the chunk in seven repetitions you finally got to 1 verse. That can be read in 9 seconds. This is the exploratory stage of your practice: when you find out what is the larges chunk you can learn by repeating it seven times. With experience you will get this size fairly immediately. But in the beginning expect to spend sometime learning about yourself and your learning capacity.

So you figured out that one verse is (for you) learnable after seven repeats. After seven repetitions you just know it. So it is going to take you (9x7) = 63 seconds to master one line of the poem. To master the 200 verses will take you exactly 3. 5 hours, the same amount of time it took you to read through the whole poem 7 times without making any progress whatsoever. The conclusion is obvious: Breaking your learning tasks into chunks that can be learned after seven repeats will save an amazing amount of time, as compared to the alternative of reading the whole thing seven times.


2. The second principle is: You learn nothing until it is processed by the unconscious. Dreaming is one of the symptoms of this, so you need at least one night sleep in between learning sessions before you actually learn what you have been practicing. Usually you need several nights sleep depending on the complexity of your task. This is the 20-minute principle.

Going back to the 200-line poem. It took you 63 seconds to repeat and learn the first line. That’s it! You do not need to do any more work on this line today. You can do, if you want, but it will not make any difference whatsoever.

If you do your seven repeats (63 seconds), stop and go to bed, next day when you wake up you will find that you pretty much forgot the line. So you must start again, and repeat the line seven times (63 seconds again). But you will discover that although you felt as ignorant as in the first day, this time it took you only 5 repeats to get to the stage you were in yesterday after 7 repeats. So you re-learnt the line in 45 seconds, instead of the 63 seconds. Never mind that, do your seven repeats again (even though you have mastered it by the fifth). On the third day, you wake up and to your dismay you realize you cannot remember a thing. However, this time by the second repeat it is all back in your mind. This time it took you only 18 seconds to get to the stage that in the first day took you 63 seconds and in the second day 45 seconds. Again, even though you mastered the line by the second repeat, you do the full seven repetitions. On the fourth day, chances are that you will not need to do any repeat. You simply know the line. I have never met anyone who needed more than seven days to get to this stage. Usually by the third/fourth day they have learned their chunk of information (provided that the size of the chunk could be learned after seven repeats).

The important information here is this. If you repeat your verse 700 times (instead of 7), It will make no difference whatsoever to the speed with which you will learn it. It will still take four days. You do not need to believe me. Just try it. Get two passages of a piece. Size them so that they can be learnt after seven repeats. Do only seven repeats on the first one, and 700 repeats on the second. See which one is thoroughly learnt first. My prediction is that they will both take exactly the same amount of time to be learnt

In the case of a passage of music, you will probably do more things then just repeat it. After repeating seven times, I would work on hands separate and hands together. Depending on the passage I might use rhythmic variations, or play it in chords, or other practice variations. So it may take 15 – 20 minutes to go through all these routines, maybe a bit more, maybe a bit less. Then that is it for the day! Only go through that passage again next day. If you want to devote 5 hours a day to piano practice, use the remaining time to practice other passages, or even passages from other pieces.

So use the 7-repeat principle to define the section you are going to practice. Then practice it only for the time necessary to master it (usually less then 15 – 20 minutes, but rarely a bit more). Then leave it until the next day. Repeat the same process again until you finally know it (should take 3 – 4 days)


7 repeats or 700. It makes no difference. The point is to use 7 repeats to define, or better yet, validate, a section size to practice, and then use a proceeding 15-20 minutes to attempt to master it (I say validate because I strongly believe that dividing a piece into sections should be done away from the piano, not unlike fingering).

But hey, like I said, don't believe me. Instead, test what I say, otherwise all the reading and writing you're doing is a waste of time.

Originally Posted by Bernhard

There are several threads dealing with practice methods/tricks in the forum. Have a look in a few of them:

http://www.pianoforum.net/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.cgi?board=stud;action=display;num=1078506136

http://www.pianoforum.net/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.cgi?board=stud;action=display;num=1074857245

http://www.pianoforum.net/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.cgi?board=stud;action=display;num=1073455478

http://www.pianoforum.net/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.cgi?board=stud;action=display;num=1073940433

http://www.pianoforum.net/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.cgi?board=perf;action=display;num=1076338892;start=50

http://www.pianoforum.net/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.cgi?board=perf;action=display;num=1076256873

Your problem will be to sort out the true gems from the rubbish. I cannot do that for you because:

1. Who am I to say that my suggestions are true gems and the suggestions of people who disagree with me are rubbish?

2. What works in terms of efficient practice cannot be decided by verbal argument (I was going to say intellectual argument but…)

3. What works for a certain person may not work for you and vice versa.

So here is what you do:

Make a list of practice techniques that may seem to contradict each other. Choose two pieces of music of similar difficulty and similar technical demands. Practise one using method 1 and the other piece using method 2. After a couple of days/weeks practice it should be totally obvious which practice technique is the good one.

This is a very good way to go about it because:

1. It is scientific, and therefore bypasses mere opinions.

2. It increases your repertory (it forces you to learn two pieces instead of one).

3. It teaches you about the pieces (you will have to analyse them to figure out if they are the same degree of difficulty).

4. It teaches you about several practice techniques.

5. It makes your practice focused and mindful instead of mechanical and thoughtless.

6. It personalises your practice: soon you will know what works for you and what does not work for you



Quote
but if i don't try to play fast, how do i know whether i can play the pieces?
Do you mean that, i can increase speed when i can play the current tempo comfortably?


Look here for more discussion on the topic of slow practice, and then use the method above to decide what is rubbish and what is not:

http://www.pianoforum.net/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.cgi?board=stud;action=display;num=1081041954

http://www.pianoforum.net/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.cgi?board=perf;action=display;num=1019674462

http://www.pianoforum.net/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.cgi?board=perf;action=display;num=1080242821



Quote
I have read the website of Chang, the practice methods.
are they useful?


If you go through the forum, here are two opinions you will find:

Yes, they are very useful.
No, they are rubbish.

It does not matter what people say (and even if it did, who are you going to believe?). Chang has argued his own case. It is up to you to try out his ideas and decide for yourself.

Finally. Irrespective of how you practice, the way to improve faster is:

1. To equate practice with improvement. If you have not improved, you have not practised. If you spend five hours at the piano and after five hours you have not improved, then you have not practised, you have just done piano related activity.

2. To know exactly what you want to improve, that is you must practise with an aim. (If you don’t know what you want to improve, how will you know that you improved?).

3. To organise your long term goals (e.g. learn a Beethoven sonatas) into tiny short term goals that add up to your long term goal. Then apply [1] and [2] to each short term goal.

4. To be totally systematic, so that you accomplish [3]. Most people are totally chaotic in their practice. Think of building a house or baking a cake. You must do it in steps (small steps), The steps must be done in a certain order, and you must do them systematically until you get a completed house or a nice cake out of the oven.


I hope this helps.

Best wishes,
Bernhard.




Here are four links you ought to read, which should thoroughly clarify the "7 repeats tool" in the context of practicing piano:


Bobpickle

My remark about evidence did not refer to validity and efficiency of any of Bernhard’s methods. It was about the “evidence” that all is clear and nothing in the methodology may be improved. I am avid supporter and follower of Bernhard’s and Chang’s views for several years. I have read almost all of Bernhard topics when he was active at the pianostreet and even translated his most basic posts for my own blog http://soltem.livejournal.com It is the comparison of Bernhard’s method of 7 error-free times + 15 minute sessions with some conclusions of the book mentioned that I put for discussion here. Perhaps, I am not so much fluent in my English to make it so evident. I do not doubt efficiency of Bernhard’s method! I doubt if it is a closed case.

Re: How many repeats per day? [Re: Bobpickle] #2125626
07/30/13 10:56 PM
07/30/13 10:56 PM
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 16,548
Boynton Beach, FL
Morodiene Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Morodiene  Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 16,548
Boynton Beach, FL
Originally Posted by Bobpickle
Originally Posted by Morodiene
I think perhaps you are going about this in too scientific/logical a fashion. Yes, there is that aspect to it, but practice should always be a creative process. And by process, I mean that as you improve as a pianist, you learn how to be better at practicing efficiently, creatively, and effectively.


This is true, but without first having a scientifically-grounded core routine to follow through which to provide a place and a context for instructions like "practice slow" and "practice in small sections," then telling someone to do such things is akin to telling them to bake a cake with "flour and eggs." While such ingredients are obviously invaluable, without providing a context, such advice is clearly useless. Now you argue that one must be creative in order to figure out these things, but the simple fact is that there's no reason to have to try and re-invent the wheel when there are already perfectly rational general guidelines which exist that one can try and follow. I'd argue that it's much more rational, efficient, and effective to start with such proven guidelines (that so few teachers seem to provide) and adapt those over time rather than to tell someone that they just need to figure it out on their own from scratch over time (advice that so many teachers unfortunately do provide).
I'm confused as to why you think I am suggesting reinventing the wheel from the post I made which did not offer any concrete suggestions on how to practice since we aren't talking about a concrete problem with a concrete piece of music and a real person. Please stop projecting what you think I would say to a student who is having a problem playing a particular passage in a piece (your welcome for the alliteration).


private piano/voice teacher FT

[Linked Image][Linked Image][Linked Image]
[Linked Image]
Re: How many repeats per day? [Re: Morodiene] #2125656
07/30/13 11:43 PM
07/30/13 11:43 PM
Joined: May 2012
Posts: 1,393
Cameron Park, California
Bobpickle Offline

Gold Supporter until July 10  2014
Bobpickle  Offline

Gold Supporter until July 10  2014


Joined: May 2012
Posts: 1,393
Cameron Park, California
Originally Posted by Morodiene
Please stop projecting


Yes, I clearly stupidly took personal offense at the comment and overreacted. I'm sorry.


"[The trick to life isn't] just about living forever. The trick is still living with yourself forever."
Re: How many repeats per day? [Re: Bobpickle] #2126170
07/31/13 10:50 PM
07/31/13 10:50 PM
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 16,548
Boynton Beach, FL
Morodiene Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Morodiene  Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 16,548
Boynton Beach, FL
Originally Posted by Bobpickle
Originally Posted by Morodiene
Please stop projecting


Yes, I clearly stupidly took personal offense at the comment and overreacted. I'm sorry.
Don't sweat it, Bob. I read your other post and I understand where you are coming from. Being a sensitive person is not a bad thing. Being enthusiastic is also not a bad thing. It is great to have ideas that are revolutionary to you and make such a big impact. Please continue to share, and understand we all have those ideas that we want to share as well. smile


private piano/voice teacher FT

[Linked Image][Linked Image][Linked Image]
[Linked Image]
Re: How many repeats per day? [Re: lotal] #2132160
08/13/13 06:52 AM
08/13/13 06:52 AM
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 1,230
CebuKid Offline
1000 Post Club Member
CebuKid  Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 1,230
I started a similar thread awhile back which I called, "Chunk and Repeat." (I should trademark that...lol)

Here's my take on it. Everyone learns differently, and there's much debate on "real" memorization vs. muscle memorization, etc. The way I've always learned as an adult re-beginner is....I'll learn chunks of the piece, using the score, and repeat these chunks several times..still using the score. Eventually after enough repeats (which could take days), "muscle memory" takes over for me and now that chunk is memorized. This method doesn't stick, by the way. Those who can "read and play" (not sight-read, but read while playing) consistently are much better off. All the experts here are correct on that. smile

Case-in-point...My memorized rep. is down to one and bits and pieces of others..to get my rep. back, I'll have to chunk and repeat all over again, though it'll probably be easier... I'll get back into it soon enough. smile


Last edited by CebuKid; 08/13/13 07:40 AM.

YouTube Channel
Scott Joplin Repertoire


Music washes away from the soul
the dust of everyday life.
- Berthold Auerbach


[Linked Image]
Re: How many repeats per day? [Re: lotal] #2132558
08/13/13 11:03 PM
08/13/13 11:03 PM
Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 935
Canada Alberta
M
Michael_99 Offline
500 Post Club Member
Michael_99  Offline
500 Post Club Member
M

Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 935
Canada Alberta
lotal, I have read your post, here:

I came to a paradox, which I cannot resolve myself. Can anybody help?

There is a common advice to learn a piece by small chunks, with special care to difficult spots. In most difficult passages the practiced selection of notes may be diminished to just a few. Furthermore, it is often said that the chunk should be of such size that one would master it in 5-15 minutes. They say you must finish with it by 5-7 deliberate repeats without errors and forget about the passage till the next day, hoping for the post practice improvement to do its work through the night.

On the other hand, music practice is often compared with rehabilitation of patients, who suffered a stroke. In both cases one trains one’s brain and grow additional links between neurons. For example, an excellent book about that is “The Brain That Changes Itself: Stories of Personal Triumph from the Frontiers of Brain Science” by Norman Doige. To make the damaged brain grow extra internal connections the patient should repeat hand movements zillions times a day, 500 at least, but the more the better, through all the day.

You see, I can not the two approaches make met. Should I deliberately repeat complex hand movements 5 or 500 times per day? OK, I may notice some difference: there is a memory issue and there is an issue about feasibility of a movement. Evidently, when one has no problems with the movement itself, but tries to memorize it, then 5 error-free repeats would be all right. When one practices a thrill, probably, he would do those 500 repeats in 10 minutes. However, most real passages are of grayscale, partially difficult in movement and needed to be memorized. What about them? What is the adequate procedure? I may after all repeat a “grayscale” passage 5 times without errors in 10 minutes, but hardly my movements will be light and easy. Why not to work on the movement for some more time or in other practice sessions of the day? Hardly would I reach the number of 500 for repeats for this grayscale passage.

Any solutions? If you suggest further diminishing down to a couple of most problem notes within the passage to play them separate 500 times, I gave a thought to that already, but I do not feel fully content with that solution. It seems to me than not all movements may be atomized down to separate notes without some loss of its total sense, like the thrill is not exactly practiced by just two keystokes. I also have read Chang’s book and am familiar with the method of parallel sets, which make it possible to go from two keystrokes to ten or twenty when practicing a thrill. But still… the two approaches above do not seem to meet well.

_________________________

Interesting post.

lotal you say: There is a common advice to learn a piece by small chunks, with special care to difficult spots. In most difficult passages the practiced selection of notes may be diminished to just a few. Furthermore, it is often said that the chunk should be of such size that one would master it in 5-15 minutes. They say you must finish with it by 5-7 deliberate repeats without errors and forget about the passage till the next day, hoping for the post practice improvement to do its work through the night.

humblebeginnerpianoplayer says: When I begin a piece, I first read through the measures to be sure I can play or know the names of the notes on the staff, below the staff and above the staff. Then I read through the measures again to make sure I know the values of the notes in every measure as you count the values as you work through the measures. Then I start at the beginning of the piece crawling through the measures slowly playing without mistakes. If I make a mistake then I stop and try to figure out why I made a mistake. Was it not reading the note properly or was it a timing error.

Recently, I had a difficulty - a big difficulty - and I couldn't figure out why I would freeze because I knew all the names of the notes and I knew the values of the note to be played. But what happened was that after studying the problem - it was that my brain had to play a few simple chords of 2 notes and then change to another two note chord - so it should have been a simple job for my brain to do, but I guess that is something my brain hadn't encountered before, so I helped my brain out - because I didn't want to waste time waiting for my brain to get it right.

So I took a moment to write out the notes - note by note for the two measures that my brain had trouble with - because the rest of the piece I could play without mistakes easily - as I was saying writing out the notes - note by note - but I added the next note. So it helped my brain because it only had to play one note at a time as opposed to two notes at a time - a chord - and then the change of the 2 note chord, so effectively I was playing all the notes in order and with the proper note values but only ever one note at a time as opposed to 2 notes - a chord - doing that a few times slowly and without mistakes - my brain liked that - and then I went back to the measures that were trouble and played those measures as one would and it worked because my brain now had a memory of the sequence of the notes being played and it was an easy step now for the brain to handle the chords because the brain had the experience it had just had.

So now I have learned how to quickly recognize the problem and break it down for my brain.

And like all things piano, when your brain gets a new experience under its fingers, it is there for life.


Last edited by Michael_99; 08/13/13 11:14 PM.
Page 2 of 2 1 2

Moderated by  BB Player 

(ad)
Faust Harrison Pianos
Faust Harrison 100+ Steinways
(ad)
Sweetwater - Keyboards
Sweetwater Keyboard Deals
(ad)
Pianoteq
PianoTeq Bechstein
New Topics - Multiple Forums
Sticky key on Kawai ES100
by alexk3954. 02/21/19 12:34 PM
1987 Samick SG172
by JasonCT. 02/21/19 11:11 AM
The Piano's Golden Generation
by Tyrone Slothrop. 02/21/19 05:12 AM
So... how do you clean the keyboard?
by JimB1. 02/20/19 09:36 PM
Forum Statistics
Forums40
Topics190,416
Posts2,797,899
Members92,539
Most Online15,252
Mar 21st, 2010
(ad)
Accu-Tuner
Sanderson Accu-Tuner
Please Support Our Advertisers
Faust Harrison 100+ Steinways

Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver

Sweetwater

 Best of Piano Buyer

PianoTeq Bechstein
Visit our online store for gifts for music lovers


 
Help keep the forums up and running with a donation, any amount is appreciated!
Or by becoming a Subscribing member! Thank-you.
Donate   Subscribe
 
Our Piano Related Classified Ads
| Dealers | Tuners | Lessons | Movers | Restorations | Pianos For Sale | Sell Your Piano |

Advertise on Piano World
| Subscribe | Piano World | PianoSupplies.com | Advertise on Piano World |
| |Contact | Privacy | Legal | About Us | Site Map | Free Newsletter |


copyright 1997 - 2019 Piano World ® all rights reserved
No part of this site may be reproduced without prior written permission
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.6.2