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Love the Petruciani cut. I hear rhythm and dynamics playing a big role in shaping his lines. Density of notes trailing off to notes with lots of space is a form of tension and release. Same for increasing and decreasing the volume. He seems to use these techniques to create lines just as much as harmonic resolution.

Interesting observation!

No, I don't. I know Dave Frank has one in minor called 'Midtown 9am'. I don't have the cd handy, but now I'm curious how he does tension and resolution (maybe I'll find the cd).

I have done a recording improvising over that vamp. When I was recording it, I never thought of tension and resolution, but now, watching my video, I'm seeing that I'm doing the tension and resolution mainly using single note melodies on my right hand, something a little like what Petrucciani is doing in the video you posted.

The piece is one chord, Fminor7 I think, for a while and then DF shifts the whole thing a minor third down for a while, to Dminor7, and then comes back. (In my cover I just stayed in Fminor7 the whole time.)

In all these cases of vamps, I guess I'm getting the feeling that there is tension and resolution but it's got a different feel than with chord changes. It's like the resolution is a slightly less satisfying kind. On the other hand I feel like vamps are easier listening.

This is my cover of the vamp that I mentioned:

[video:youtube]kYR-a1GH6oI[/video]

CharlesLang ... could you possibly post details about how you mike your piano. The sound is very good and coming across very clearly. I know there are others on this forum who can give general advice about piano miking ... would be interested to hear ..

Jazzwee ... one way forward on ow to play over vamps and one chord might be to post a lick or two that you like from McCoy's Passion Dance solo (were you able to get it from Scribd or elsewhere?) and discuss.

Well, ok .... here's a short excerpt.

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/19895150/passiondance.png

MT begins the phrase so it's grounded over F7 or mixolydian or whatever anyone wants to call it. In the 4th measure of the excerpt his RH goes up so that he's working from a Gb major pentatonic scale, although, as with the F7 it can be called by other names. The concept is he's playing 1/2 higher than the original key. I know some teachers and authors call this step-stepping and things like that.

One way forward w/this kind of stuff is take however much of that lick you like and play it in a bunch of keys. Or take the lick and see what happens if instead of stepping up a 1/2 step you go up a whole step. Or really any interval. I read somewhere that Joe Henderson said when he wanted to go "outside" he's just play EVERYTHING up a whole step! I wish I could find that ...


A few posts back you wrote "if the Bass player is playing something more open, one can be free to change the chord quality as well."

That's totally spot-on and is very common. Like all else it's a question of agreement and cooperation on the bandstand.

Hope this helps ...



Mark

Hey Mark, thanks for that snippet post. Now this part I already knew. In fact, I've been applying that in the recordings I did. McCoy plays the fourth (quartal) voicing moving it around usually in half steps to any point or moving it in perfect 4ths. Then his RH follows by playing the triad shape.

What my question though was that it seemed to be that playing Mixolydian, or any non-scale shape that implies ALT are tension raising sounds. I found that that tension has to be released somehow and I'm realizing now that the great players don't just raise the tension for 10 minutes. Good solos on a Vamp seem to need a thoughtful release/resolution.

Since this is a Vamp, there is no V-I to take advantage of. In Passion Dance, it appears that McCoy's way is to hit that Root note only (sounded doubled) and just pound on it a few times before he heads off again to raise tension. Thus I presume playing a Root suggests an F Maj sound. At least this was his approach in an F7sus vamp.

Listening to Pettruciani one can also hear him resolve his Dorian vamp lines. Now at least in Dorian, one can actually move the LH to the I chord (without following the bass player). I wonder if that resolves it.

But beyond all that, I was wondering what you and others actually use as an approach to resolve a Vamp line (based on cumulative knowledge), particularly Minor and Sus4 vamps.

Excellent ... you got a base and it's a good one.



You're right. So one of the tricks is to see how the McCoy that you know also applies to this other scenario you've just described.

Maybe another way to say that is if we changed a few words about the ALT scenario your description and observations could just as well apply to McCoy in Passion Dance.

In other words, McCoy shows us in that snippet that he's establishing a tonality, moving outside of it and then returning to it. The triads and pentatonics - that incidental. It's part of his style but it's the larger idea of starting inside moving outside and coming back inside that's important.

A different way to say this is he gives us 3 measures of inside and 1 measure of outside and then he comes back inside. So from my point of view this 3:1 ratio also solves the ALT scenario you describe. "Solves" in the sense of we get that ALT scenario up and running pretty easily with the ratio of inside/outside taken from McCoy.

But of course there are other ways ....



I know what you mean. But maybe here's another way to look at it, which is: there's no V-I to take advantage of. But there is that 3:1 consonance-to-dissonance ratio. And V-I when it comes down to it is just another dissonance (V) resolving to I.

So there are a million other solutions. But just to make sure we're getting as much as we can out of this one I'm really banging on that McCoy example. And the example says: Play three measures of inside stuff. Play one measure of outside stuff. Come back inside!

Of course there are a million subtle ways to do all of this, thus Petrruciani as you describe ...



To practice this stuff I would do exactly as I'm describing in the sense of (1) isolate some larger concept from something I like and (b) figure out how to practice it in some that's meaningful to me. I know this is pretty wide open but that's the way I would go at it. But the rub of course is you have what you're hearing in your head so my description might only take you part of the way there. But you could, for example, fine an excerpt that goes right to the sound you'd like to hear and then figure out the big concept there ... at least that's what I'd suggest.

Then on a gig it all happens the way you've been describing as with your bass player. Someone takes a liberty. Someone else responds. Before you know it if everyone's in sync magic happens. If one person in the group misses a cue the magic stops! So everyone resets and starts again!

But that's what makes it all fun!

Great information Mark. Was that accurate? 3:1 Inside to outside? I'd have to listen again but I would have guessed 5:1.

Now with McCoy though you said he was playing Mixolydian tonality. Not reading the transcription to verify but just listening to him, I would generally say that he uses quartal tonality which would deemphasize the 3rd, instead emphasizing 4th intervals. This of course would give the chords a non-Mixolydian quality which doesn't necessarily require resolution. So perhaps that's part of the theory there. In essence, tension and release being handled in other ways like movement vs. non movement, inside vs. outside, open-playing vs. more dense, and less on harmonic progression, etc.

Obviously trying to pin down how resolution feels to each of us is moving target. But I think NOT thinking about resolution creates a poor solo. I watched a concert with world-class players and they had a guest sax player who was a new member of the faculty. Fantastic chops and sound but the solos were drawn out wanking sessions. There was no "release". He paled in comparison to the big names next to him and obviously the balance of tension and release was automatic to masters.

I'm glad I'm realizing this now since the approach is totally different with a functional progression.

Side note: interesting with 3:1
I have been told by a couple of old-school jazz cats that when soloing on a Blues; play 3 bars, rest 1.

I've been looking to do a duet CD with Kenny Barron. But since he was a little bit over my budget, I told him I'd pay 75% of the fee. He'll play the first 3 bars, and I'll play the 4th etc...

Let's see how that turns out.

It all depends which bar you play in.

Thanks. I have used mostly condensers, large, medium and small diaphragm. I pretty much always have two over the strings. These days I usually put the capsules pointing straight down toward the soundboard. They are positioned just a little beyond the dampers, and maybe four inches or so above the soundboard (one in the treble region and one in the bass region). I've also introduced lately a third mic, a non-condenser, dynamic mic that gets more clarity on the attack part of the tone (better transients).

The cover of the Dave Frank vamp is a slightly older video and I don't remember exactly what arrangement I was using, unfortunately. Of the two videos I posted, I hope the "Hand-wavy" video has slightly better sound, since I was using more expensive mics.

In terms of processing, I don't use equalization at all really, but sometimes use some dynamic range compression and sometimes some reverb. Lately I'm using moderate dynamic range compression on everything.

Jazzwee, if you look at the excerpt - and that one excerpt only - you'll see there are 3 inside measures, 1 outside measure, and then a few other inside measure to cement the resolution. So that's where my number comes from. But because it's a number doesn't mean there's magic!

....If your ears hear 5:1, well, sure, why not? Experiment. Let your ear be the guide.



I took a look at what I said but I didn't use the "mixolydian" word! .... but more important is YOUR analysis here is perfectly articulated and good. So run with it!

[/quote]



But that's the nice bit about the MT excerpt - he shows how he establishes resolution. But there are other ways to go at it - including some in the Charlie Parker Omnibook (just to mention a completely different point of view).

charleslang. thanks for those details. the recorded sound in your video was very very nice and for me capture the overall sound of the piano really well. is very impressive!

That seems well put.



Thanks so so much; I invite you to subscribe to my channel on YouTube. I have another grand, a Baldwin, that I'm preparing for recording right now, and I'll be posting recordings soon.

Find the CD)

Me and Knotty were sitting in the front row at a Keith trio concert a couple of years back. He was doing an extended vamp thing, and I had an eerie experience where I felt for awhile that I could tune into his thought process. What it felt like, one, was extreme sensitivity, subtle complete concentration. His focus at that moment appeared to be all about *surprise*. Every moment he would assess what the audience would expect, and he would do something else..it was really interesting.

DF

DF,

I guess that's the key right there. Knowing the moment to raise tension and to release it and make it not sound boring. Definitely more difficult than it sounds.

When I see KJ I'm also forced to be in deep concentration and then you see even the subtleties of using dynamics. Not only does he pick seemingly the right notes for the right moment but his touch and articulation are in total sync and to an amazing degree. And people wonder why some of us think he's the god of jazz piano -- well because I'm never heard anyone do the same.

Michael P -

Appreciate the ideas there. I wasn't taught before in the framework of studying transcriptions in as detailed a manner and I understand now the thought process you follow in looking for ideas. Seems like if I can work on a snippet of an idea a week, in 52 weeks, I'd be sounding different!

I was playing on the vamp concept again tonight and followed a little bit of McCoy's lead where he would release tension by just playing what sounds to be like Root-5-Root (F-C-F). So I did that and it does begin to sound like a major chord tonic. At least this is my observation from listening.

Then I noticed, at least to me, a certain feeling of release when I play the V in a dorian mode. But not as V7 but as 1-5-1 again. So in Dm it would be G-C-G. At least I'm establishing what chord movement works for me to resolve an idea. I'm sure there are other approaches, but at least I have one pattern.

I answer to pretty much anything




You got it! ... 52 ideas from major players is a lot of 1st-rate guidance ... (it works for me



jazzwee ... and this is TOTALLY what you want. ... establishing what works for you. with one working idea you'll find the next one ... because the one will lead to another ... and then they start to multiply


[/quote]

One thing McCoy does (and a lot of other people as well) is to superimpose a sequence on a modal vamp. Suppose it is a Cm vamp, he might play ..
Cm / Cm / Cm A7alt / D7alt G7alt /

This gives a good framework for going away from the Cm tonality and also giving a solid resolution. If you use 3 note voicings for the superimposed chords you an kind of fool the ear into thinking that the voicings are quartal and this gives a nice open feel to the harmony. (Dominant chords are hard to voice in perfect 4ths obviously). Add a variety of many different pentatonics you can play on these altered chords and there is really a lot of possibilities just from this one simple idea.
I can't remember if he does that on passion dance but it is a device he uses a lot.

Mark, so sorry to invent a name for you! Senior moment. But we can be even now because below is where you said Mixolydian



I have a jazz trio gig on Thursday where I'm planning on doing Passion Dance (first time) and Afro Blue (again) to see if I learned anything about vamps.