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Need help with prelude no. 5, wtc book 1 #2120017
07/19/13 05:45 AM
07/19/13 05:45 AM
Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 216
V
Verbum mirabilis Offline OP
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Verbum mirabilis  Offline OP
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Joined: Jun 2011
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Towards the end of the prelude there's a pedal tone in the bass:

[Linked Image]

I need help with fingering for the left hand in the third bar. I guess that I need to let that A go to be able to play the left hand, right? I'm thinking of playing the left hand as follows: hold the A for first two beats, play the first seven sixteenths 321 4234, release the A on the third beat and then play the two groups of sixteenths 3212 4234.

I checked the Busoni edition at IMSLP. He suggests releasing the A on the second half of the third beat, then 12 for the 2nd and 3rd notes (f and g) of the third group of sixteenths in the bar.

I hope this makes sense. If it doesn't, I'll post a picture of the score with my fingerings in it.


Working on

Chopin: op. 25 no. 11
Haydn: Sonata in in Eb Hob XVI/52
Schumann: Piano concerto 1st movement
Rachmaninoff: op. 39 no. 8

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Re: Need help with prelude no. 5, wtc book 1 [Re: Verbum mirabilis] #2120069
07/19/13 08:37 AM
07/19/13 08:37 AM
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DanS Offline
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Try playing those 16th with 321 3123 1321 3123. I think letting go of the A is fine by the time you get to the F natural.


HTH

Re: Need help with prelude no. 5, wtc book 1 [Re: DanS] #2120233
07/19/13 04:33 PM
07/19/13 04:33 PM
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Verbum mirabilis Offline OP
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Verbum mirabilis  Offline OP
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Originally Posted by DanS
Try playing those 16th with 321 3123 1321 3123. I think letting go of the A is fine by the time you get to the F natural.


HTH


Thanks, 3 on the C# feels pretty good.


Working on

Chopin: op. 25 no. 11
Haydn: Sonata in in Eb Hob XVI/52
Schumann: Piano concerto 1st movement
Rachmaninoff: op. 39 no. 8

Re: Need help with prelude no. 5, wtc book 1 [Re: Verbum mirabilis] #2120237
07/19/13 04:42 PM
07/19/13 04:42 PM
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Posts: 4,169
Bay Area, CA
beet31425 Offline
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I like the suggested fingering (321 3123). You might even be able to release the A earlier than the third beat. Depending on what you're doing with the pedal, you might be able to release it as early as the C#. Play with it.


-J


Beethoven op.110, Chopin op.27/2, Liszt Vallée d'Obermann
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Re: Need help with prelude no. 5, wtc book 1 [Re: Verbum mirabilis] #2120241
07/19/13 04:51 PM
07/19/13 04:51 PM
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Philadelphia
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Derulux Offline
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If you find the F-natural a stretch in the LH, you can also try:
321 3123 2121 3123


Every day we are afforded a new chance. The problem with life is not that you run out of chances. In the end, what you run out of are days.
Re: Need help with prelude no. 5, wtc book 1 [Re: Verbum mirabilis] #2120330
07/19/13 08:19 PM
07/19/13 08:19 PM
Joined: Mar 2013
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New York City
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Polyphonist Offline
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Why release the A at all? I use 321 4234 3121 3123, and release the A at the beginning of the next bar as Bach wrote.


Regards,

Polyphonist
Re: Need help with prelude no. 5, wtc book 1 [Re: Verbum mirabilis] #2127393
08/03/13 10:47 AM
08/03/13 10:47 AM
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Posts: 216
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Verbum mirabilis Offline OP
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Verbum mirabilis  Offline OP
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I've got a question concerning the fugue so I'll just bump this thread instead of making a new one.

I use wrist rotation to play those 32th notes evenly, mostly with 43212324 in LH and 12343231 in RH.

[Linked Image]

However, there are two places where I have to play an octave:

[Linked Image]

If I play the 32ths 54323435, I can't use wrist rotation which basically means that I have to play the notes with the fingers instead of playing them with the arm. The fingering in the score lets me rotate my wrist, but I have to let the b go. I can prolong the duration of the b with a bit of pedal. What do you think?

Another place I'm having hard time with is this:

[Linked Image]

Most editions on IMSLP suggest 5 and 4 for the two circled notes. Playing with this fingering would mean a slight break between the circled notes, and I'd like to play the whole bar legato. I could play it without a break by using 1 on the a, but this would mean that I wouldn't be able to hold the a as is written in the score.

Finally, two or three editions on IMSLP suggest playing octaves in LH in the last three bars. What do you think of that?


Working on

Chopin: op. 25 no. 11
Haydn: Sonata in in Eb Hob XVI/52
Schumann: Piano concerto 1st movement
Rachmaninoff: op. 39 no. 8

Re: Need help with prelude no. 5, wtc book 1 [Re: Verbum mirabilis] #2127422
08/03/13 11:45 AM
08/03/13 11:45 AM
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 617
Los Angeles
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NeilOS Offline
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Originally Posted by Verbum mirabilis
Towards the end of the prelude there's a pedal tone in the bass:

[Linked Image]

I need help with fingering for the left hand in the third bar. I guess that I need to let that A go to be able to play the left hand, right? I'm thinking of playing the left hand as follows: hold the A for first two beats, play the first seven sixteenths 321 4234, release the A on the third beat and then play the two groups of sixteenths 3212 4234.

I checked the Busoni edition at IMSLP. He suggests releasing the A on the second half of the third beat, then 12 for the 2nd and 3rd notes (f and g) of the third group of sixteenths in the bar.

I hope this makes sense. If it doesn't, I'll post a picture of the score with my fingerings in it.


That's the fingering I use.


Concert Pianist, University Professor, Private Teacher in Los Angeles
Blog: http://www.pianoteacherlosangeles.com/
Re: Need help with prelude no. 5, wtc book 1 [Re: Verbum mirabilis] #2127431
08/03/13 12:02 PM
08/03/13 12:02 PM
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 617
Los Angeles
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NeilOS Offline
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Los Angeles
Originally Posted by Verbum mirabilis
I've got a question concerning the fugue so I'll just bump this thread instead of making a new one.

I use wrist rotation to play those 32th notes evenly, mostly with 43212324 in LH and 12343231 in RH.

[Linked Image]

However, there are two places where I have to play an octave:

[Linked Image]

If I play the 32ths 54323435, I can't use wrist rotation which basically means that I have to play the notes with the fingers instead of playing them with the arm. The fingering in the score lets me rotate my wrist, but I have to let the b go. I can prolong the duration of the b with a bit of pedal. What do you think?

Another place I'm having hard time with is this:

[Linked Image]

Most editions on IMSLP suggest 5 and 4 for the two circled notes. Playing with this fingering would mean a slight break between the circled notes, and I'd like to play the whole bar legato. I could play it without a break by using 1 on the a, but this would mean that I wouldn't be able to hold the a as is written in the score.

Finally, two or three editions on IMSLP suggest playing octaves in LH in the last three bars. What do you think of that?


1) Let go of the B in your thumb. The subject is more important. A keyboard player at the time would have played the B as an eighth-note.

2) The leap of a fourth from E to A can be accomplished neatly by means of forearm rotation, using the E as a spring board. In this case I use 4. But I've also used thumb on the A with good results. In speed, the sustained A is hardly missed. (Play it with a little extra weight.)


Concert Pianist, University Professor, Private Teacher in Los Angeles
Blog: http://www.pianoteacherlosangeles.com/
Re: Need help with prelude no. 5, wtc book 1 [Re: Verbum mirabilis] #2128309
08/05/13 02:13 AM
08/05/13 02:13 AM
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Posts: 216
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Verbum mirabilis Offline OP
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Thanks, Neil. That was helpful.


Working on

Chopin: op. 25 no. 11
Haydn: Sonata in in Eb Hob XVI/52
Schumann: Piano concerto 1st movement
Rachmaninoff: op. 39 no. 8

Re: Need help with prelude no. 5, wtc book 1 [Re: Verbum mirabilis] #2128418
08/05/13 10:37 AM
08/05/13 10:37 AM
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SBP Offline
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While I'm not really a Bach sort of person, I'd imagine that while you could keep the A held down for those three measures, there isn't much of a point. Because you're (presumably) playing this on a normal piano, the A will have decayed and died off by the 3rd measure, so it really wouldn't matter if you released it. It's not like anyone will notice this. On the organ, with an infinite sustain and pedalboard, it's a different matter. I'm assuming that the transcriber just adapted it straight from the organ score with no real alterations.


2012 Kawai K3
Re: Need help with prelude no. 5, wtc book 1 [Re: SBP] #2128425
08/05/13 10:45 AM
08/05/13 10:45 AM
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 22,072
New York
Mark_C Offline
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New York
Originally Posted by SBP
While I'm not really a Bach sort of person, I'd imagine that while you could keep the A held down for those three measures, there isn't much of a point....

I was going to say much the same thing (not mentioning that I'm not really a Bach sort of person but it would have been obvious) grin ....but I went and tried it on the piano, found that it does make a difference, and it seemed easily that one could well feel that the note must be held.

I've played the piece, never thought about playing the note with anything except the thumb and never felt any reason to think of holding the note, but I think that was mainly because I helped with the pedal which of course is a whole other issue. I did give a slight extra emphasis to the note (exactly as Neil said), which I thought gave the impression of a quarter note, but of course many people wouldn't think that's good and in any event it wouldn't be what they want. (If I were to play the piece again, I would definitely give it a try the other way, although from a 'health' standpoint I'm not at all happy about "5 - 4" on those notes, and I have to say also, with the same disclaimer as you stated, that such a fingering seems very un-Bach to me.)

Re: Need help with prelude no. 5, wtc book 1 [Re: Verbum mirabilis] #2128490
08/05/13 01:12 PM
08/05/13 01:12 PM
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Serge Marinkovic Offline
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Change your edition to Masterworks by William Palmer superb fingering. Much better than Schiff's Henle edition. Cheapest through Amazon.com. You will quickly see how ergonomic the late William Palmer's ideas with fingering. Now I buy well edited editions like Cortot for the Schumann Toccata. Just brilliant fingering by maestro Cortot.


Serge P. Marinkovic, MD

Re: Need help with prelude no. 5, wtc book 1 [Re: Verbum mirabilis] #2128505
08/05/13 01:36 PM
08/05/13 01:36 PM
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Verbum mirabilis Offline OP
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SBP: The tempo is pretty fast, so the A hasn't decayed much during its duration. However the two bars' difference in the duration of the A won't be very audible because of the two voices playing 16th notes above it.

Mark: Maybe Bach wrote the A as a quarter note because it's a part of the subject, not because he wanted it to be held? Due to the subject in the tenor the A cannot be held for it's whole duration anyway.


Working on

Chopin: op. 25 no. 11
Haydn: Sonata in in Eb Hob XVI/52
Schumann: Piano concerto 1st movement
Rachmaninoff: op. 39 no. 8

Re: Need help with prelude no. 5, wtc book 1 [Re: Verbum mirabilis] #2129024
08/06/13 04:13 PM
08/06/13 04:13 PM
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SBP Offline
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On an organ, there is no decay, so holding down the A would indeed have a big impact on the sound. However, an organ has the advantage of two+ manuals, plus a pedal board, so it's much easier to keep it held down. Perhaps this prelude/fugue was meant for an organ (or possibly a harpsichord with 2 manuals), or transcribed from an organ/harpsichord score?


2012 Kawai K3

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