Piano World Home Page Forums Our Most Popular Forums Piano Tuner-Technicians Forum Ok, so I've been thinking about Max's cardboard fix

He is using sandpaper shims.

or your preferred cardboard. It's great!
Thank,Johnkie. About the fact that Erik used the metal shims I'm seen. And it's does not work.
I also realized that he made a tighten using a sandpaper and it is satisfies him . But about the cardboard I did not read anything there

Thank you Mark R,I understood so it. He set sandpaper shims and he turns pin into a pinblock

"Is it possible to patent an invention in Russia?"

It's been 3 years, but the Russian Forum technicians, led by the moderator Alexy have mocking laugh about the cardboard of Max. He ( moderator) even created a topics: "Is it possible to patent an invention in Russia?"
But Max is not discouraged, because he believes in cardboard shim because it's help repair hopeless piano

ALEXY
Скоро будет 5 лет, как я принимаю участие в нашем форуме.
Высказано много интересных мыслей, проходят необычные решения, предложения по конструкциям фортепиано, по восстановлению их, по материалам и орудиям труда.
Некоторые изобретения явно могли быть зафиксированы , как авторская находка.
Кстати , это касается и всех мастеров , работающих на ниве создания, обслуживания и восстановления музыкальных инструментов.
Был ли подобный опыт , вот в чем вопрос


ALEXY
It will soon be five years since I participate in the forum.
Expressed many interesting ideas, are unusual solutions, proposals for repair piano, to restore them, the materials and instruments of labor.
Some inventions can be clearly recorded, as the author's repair.
By the way, this applies to all technicians working in the field of creation, maintenance and repair of musical instruments.
Was this experience, that is the question

Tuner
Алексей!
Это опасный путь, ведь так можно запатентовать закрепление строя шкуркой, бумагой, пластмассой и все, что угодно - поскольку все это "патентно чисто".

Кто будет экспертом, определяющим патентную чистоту? Либо тот, кто ничего не понимает в фортепианном деле и совершенно формально проверяющий иностранные патенты, либо точно такой же "изобретатель", уже засветившийся в патентном бюро и потому ставший "экспертом".

Tuner
Alexy!
This is a dangerous way, is not it can be patented a tighten abrasive cloth, cardboard paper, plastic and any - because everything is "purely patent."


Who is an expert in determining the purity of the patent? Or the one who does not understand anything in a piano case and quite formally validating foreign patents, or exactly the same, the "inventor" is who have blat at the patent office, and therefore become the "expert."


erisipilloid
Вопрос многогранный, но все же.А чего Вы от патента хочите -то? Можно и картон запатентовать, и никакого "чистого" патенства ненужно, как раз за бугром, Вы можете любую ересь запатентовать, и никому до этого дела нет.. Главный вопрос кому нужна эта Ваша ересь?, гофрокартон например? Ответ-никому!


erisipilloid
A multi-faceted issue, but still. And what do you want from a patent ? You can would patent cardboard and there is no "pure" patent is unnecessary as the time abroad. You can patent any heresy here, and nobody no deal .. The big question who needs this your heresy? A corrugated cardboard for example? The answer is none!

http://www.forumklassika.ru/showthread.php?t=96168&s=af98eda330fcac54a33a822fc3263bc9

E.Kalman . The duo Silva and Ephiny from the operetta "Silva "
This upright piano " Belarus " 1972. The fact is that in those years (71-72) in the music factory in Borisov's town were admitted technological marriage fixation of a pins . Was it due to the pins with a special compound coating of zinc, which delete peeled off from it's, and as a result there are some grease pins , which led to the absence of friction between a pin and a hole of a pinblock (bush).May be a hole of a pinblock was done incorrectly a drilling the hole under the pin and a bush, their cross section was big than usual standard . After prolonged use , "Belarus" loose these pins . Hammering pin usually does not lead to positive results. In our case , the tuner has done a sloppy procedure hammering pin . A piano was dead. Owners pianos were delivered before the fact to get rid of the non-working piano. Only thanks to the effort maxim_tuner and his install corrugated cardboard shims under part of the pins the piano again returned to life. Now Max make tuning and we are play music . Kalman sounds convincing and life-affirming sounds of " Silva " joy gives their beauty.
Glory corrugated cardboard which savior defective and ancient piano!
http://youtu.be/cC9dljInZOM

"..Glory corrugated cardboard which savior defective and ancient piano!"

A word of warning to the cardboard Messiah. Cardboard is very much different from normal writing paper in several ways. It has a courser fibre content and typically contains acids and chemicals which are normally removed from stationary paper.

It became well known with paper documents of the past that they did not last long because the fibers deteriorates and break down due to the high acidity. The recipe for their manufacture was altered so that PH levels were neutralized or even shifted to the alkaline direction. Documents could be preserved longer. This did not happen with cardboard. Most industrial grade cardboard has high acidity and numerous treatment chemicals left in it and could deteriorate over time or effect items which they come into contact with. Not sure what effect this might have on blued tuning pins, but its highly unlikely it would be positive.

There are specialty cardboards available which are ph neutral just like writing paper and Max may want to consider using this
instead. There are also special pens available to test the acidity of paper.

That is eventual good information.

I would not think of using cardboard to shim tuning pins (I would use wood or even brass foil) but I tune a 1900 grand Steinway with original block and the pins just one size up.

Many pin's hole are "plugged" with 2 carboard shims, some of then even by simple thick paper.
The first times I tuned that piano I thought that the tuning would not hold well, as the feel was really sloppy and lack the wanted firmness. But today after may be 5 tunings, I have one pin that I feel too soft, all the others are firm and the piano, played professionally, exhibit not large loss of pith or the infamous string that doe snot stay put where the pin cannot be set.
This is not corrugated cardboard but standard grey cardboard of unknown quality.

The new firmness is of course due to the pin setting method but the cardboard does not make that impossible as I thought.

Hey if eventually some acidity is corroding the pin inside the block, that could even add some friction don't you think ?

I wonder if parchment would do well for that use.

It have no much to do with any Messiah, and the value of corrugated cardboard hardly can be proved, as the user does not tune really at a level allowing to hear that the piano hold tuning correctly, we cannot judge the quality of the pin setting and are obliged to trust him.

I tested in a soft woodblock and the feeling with corrugated carboard was not that bad. less bad than I thought. Now how does it stay in time,I dont know. It is also more time consuming, as when using cardboard shims or wooden ones the pin is hammered in the block, not screwed.

I had used paper and cardboard many years ago and its not bad. I know several oldtimer techs who recommended it with similar results. It is hard to judge how much is too much and I often worried about splitting a block apart farther if it showed a tendancy towards this. I haven't used it in years because for minor/cheaper fixes, CA Glue works well, and for everything else I use over sized pins. The pins are known fixed sizes and with experience you learn to go 1 or 2 sizes over for varying amounts of looseness, sometimes accompanied with some truing up/sizing with a reamer. I find its more foolproof for getting eactly the torque I'm looking for on that pin.

Dear Emmery, I can not disagree with you. Indeed cardboard manufacturers all world use different chemical compositions. There will be a variety of acidic and alkaline. This can influence bad both the wood and the metal pin. However I do not suppose that this will a significant factor and lead to a negative effect, because it has a small percentage of these substances.
Thanks for your the scientific approach in criticizing Max's cardboard shim.
Sincerely, Max

"that could even add some friction don't you think ?"
I think "YES"
In 14-15 c. its use for repair pin of harpsichord

Thanks,Isaac

I agree with every your word. Every medal has two sides. Any thing has both a positive and a negative side. Cardboard in the hole still positive, I think

Dear Isaac , I'm with particular trepidation read your message about the 1900 Grand Steinway. I dare to assume that the previous tuner guided my video about to tighten pin with a cardboard shim. Especially nice to read "but today, after maybe 5 tunings , I have one conclusion, which I feel is too soft , the rest of the firm and piano, played professionally ." This proves once again that the cardboard or as you wrote , " but it's not the standard corrugated cardboard gray unknown quality " has the right as a means to tighten pin . The only difference from my installation it's " with 2 cardboard shims simple thick paper " is a pin hole " hammered " here. Some of my followers have written to me that they use a thin cardboard shims less than 2mm . They screwed pin by 2-3 turns , then "plugged " it's. I suppose such an operation possibility , but personally I'm still slowly twist pin with shim to standard height above the plate .
Once again, many thanks for your scientific approach to a theme
Regards, Max

There are 2 strips of cardboard each pin.

The tactile feedback in the lever was poor initially, and the tuning pins not very firm, but now it is more firm, this is due to the tuning technique, the cardboard strips make it possible.

That piano is still in need of repairs.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B6GjQDkF_AMQV0d1dmZUNFpJeVk/edit?usp=sharing

In France I always have seen the use of wood veener for such repair of the pin. Then some are too tight. Carboard and paper can be used with different thicknesses, that is the case on that piano.

The cardboard repair have been done about 20 years ago, sorry, it was not seeing your videos (To be honest the technicians cannot trust much your results because your unison / tuning are not clean enough, so it does not look much professional.)

It is not enough to have a pin that does not turn back with the wire tension, the notes have to be tuned, also.

Work your tuning, I see no reason you could not learn to do more firm tunings.
best regards

Dear Isaac , thanks for the music that you taped with this piano .I listened and to me it sounds nice and perfectly tuned grand piano.Isaac,good job.I can not believe that cardboard "works here" . The fact that in France the wood veener for such repair of the pin is used correctly. This additional rigidity for each pin . However, I have concerns that the use of wood makes it difficult when rotate the handle of a hammer.
I believe that there is no reason not to believe in a cardboard Max's shim just because " it unison / settings are not clean enough , so it does not look very professional ." Sounds must tuning correctly and Max slowly but surely moving in this direction also . He is full of strength and energy to go on. A install shim this is not a whim of Max, but a vital necessity to restore clunkers piano worldwide.
Regards, Max

Again an endless stream dirt pours against Max's shim at Russian forum "Classic." For more than two years, as he was expelled and banned all talk about his shim but today moderator closed the theme just because one technician restorer used the method cardboard shim when made refurbishing own piano.
Some extracts the charges members of forum here.
Upright piano W.Hoffmann (1900-1910 years) revivification
Graffity

Modestly 'll put my 5 cents , about the progress of cases. Finally finished glued work. With the bass region had to work hard - there was brutal , pinblock drilled through here was huge deep cracks . I generally pour epoxy into the holes - and she as a black hole how not much flood of a glued all leaked . As a result, in one go is the resin was over a total of 200-300 ml poured there offhand to fill all the gaps , and I suspect that corpus taped together in a couple of places with resin oozed onto the floor.
Oh, and the hole in the bass filled almost to the top and so left - from large cracks resin may leak if pumped her full of holes .
Now I understand that it was possible from the beginning to dissolve liter resin and just pour all that is possible at once. Holes are drilled easily after hardening resin walls do not suffer splitting screwed / unscrewed resin does not adhere to them all as the doctor ordered.
Tomorrow I'll take standart drill 6.5 limiter , in the bass leave "extra " depth of the holes filled with resin.
Tried to twist a pin with cardboard , holds tightly very hard , I'm not ever tuning new pianos , but the effort to turn it's no less than hammering pin downed with slight hints break a pin or a hammer . I hope all crack withstand .

19.11.2013, 07:48 # 74
kraskyun

Welcome Dmitriy. As your repair pinblock business? Interested by your promise,, screwing,, with cardboard or without. You already defined as going to insert a pin in a pinblock? On this subject there is an interesting discussion with MT (Maxim-Tuner) Max, you can read?

19.11.2013, 16:38 #75
Graffity
I want to try the old pins with cardboard, because if you put the new, will have to drill deeper, and I think that the wood should be the minimum impact, given his age and status. Watched all the videos on YouTube Max's shim cardboard and all his acts is convincing. In practice I'm one pin screwed, and a normal flight, as I wrote above. The last couple of days too busy, not to the piano, I hope these days continue

Shuh
Message from Graffity
Watched all the videos on YouTube with Max's cardboard fix
You look nothing???


ALEXY
Message from Graffity
I want to try the old pins with cardboard, because if you put the new, will have to drill deeper, and I think that the wood should be the minimum impact, given his age and status. Watched all the videos on YouTube Max's shim cardboard and all his acts is convincing. In practice I'm one pin screwed, and a normal flight, as I wrote above. The last couple of days too busy, not to the piano, I hope these days continue


Due to the fact that the author of the topic smoothly, after several attempts, went on to discuss the conduct of work in no way connected with the restoration of piano but rather with its destruction, the theme is closed.
http://www.forumklassika.ru/showthread.php?t=97501

http://youtu.be/ZpUIfXI6Jnc

Argentine man wrote me:
thanks ,max, I will register there later.
The trick I told you about loose tuning pins is to use the footwrap technique that you use but using a little strip made of a piece of sandpaper fiber disk. I will make a video of it later. Have you ever heard about that?
Pins just get really tight. It is awesome and I didn't saw it anywhere on the internet. It is a secret that a fellow technician told me. It is awesome. I saved my piano that way. Couldn't tune it even to A=400 and it was a piano from 1890. It is a really cheap solution for people that cannot import oversized tuning pins. It cost me about 4 dollars to tight the entire piano to A=440
Link here: http://youtu.be/yMxJt4E5l7o

3 years ago Max was banned at forum "Classic". But a forum moderator writes about Max as stupid upstart. Who gave him that right?
A controversy starts on a forum especially clearly when someone is not too conscious of itself in the craft or overestimate of itself begins to conduct their own line.
Bright example, corrugated cardboard

#64 17.06.2013, 13:20 ALEXY

http://www.forumklassika.ru/showthread.php?t=93456&page=7

Dear Max,

I read your posts about cardboard amd i think that this is not effective.
1) Because this is not for long period and not relible.
2) what is a reason of repairing salvage piano?


Regards,
Akylbek