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Re: Advice sought: move damage [Re: PianoWorksATL] #2128226 08/04/13 10:20 PM
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Even if it falls under the limitation, a Steinway B is what? 750lbs? 750 x $100 = $75,000


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Re: Advice sought: move damage [Re: PianoWorksATL] #2128233 08/04/13 10:33 PM
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But how many people specifically list a piano when it is moved? I suspect very few, especially since it costs more.


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Re: Advice sought: move damage [Re: Steve Cohen] #2128240 08/04/13 10:41 PM
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Originally Posted by Steve Cohen
Unless there was a signed waiver or limit to responsibility the owner should be made "whole". That is he/she should be provided with a similar pianos, acceptable to the owner, at no cost.

With the number of B's being bought and sold, this shouldn't be very difficult.


I'm with Steve.



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Re: Advice sought: move damage [Re: PianoWorksATL] #2128246 08/04/13 10:52 PM
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If you want it that way, write your congressman, and expect the cost of piano moving to go way up.


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Re: Advice sought: move damage [Re: BDB] #2128314 08/05/13 01:31 AM
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Originally Posted by BDB
But how many people specifically list a piano when it is moved? I suspect very few, especially since it costs more.


How many people pay more to insure their piano in a move? I'd say well over 50% if people I know are anything to go by.

Re: Advice sought: move damage [Re: ando] #2128325 08/05/13 02:09 AM
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Originally Posted by ando
Originally Posted by BDB
But how many people specifically list a piano when it is moved? I suspect very few, especially since it costs more.


How many people pay more to insure their piano in a move? I'd say well over 50% if people I know are anything to go by.


Australian law is not applicable to the US. What is the law there?

I should point out that if this was an intrastate move, then state law would apply, and we do not know what state this occurred in. There is almost no information given about this move, except what happened, and what happened has almost nothing to do with what compensation there might be. It is a waste of time to discuss what should be done, unless we know:
1. What are the applicable laws?
2. What insurance was there?

Assuming that the regulations which apply are similar to the interstate rules, what is most likely is that there is little liability to the mover, if the mover was properly licensed. At worst, the mover's insurance rate will go up. If the mover was not properly licensed, one may sue and the sky is the limit, but you have to be able to collect it.

If the insurance was the federal statutory insurance based on weight, the compensation from the mover will be $0.60 per pound, or $456. If the insurance is the purchased insurance, the owner should be made whole by the means described on the page I referenced. Notice that it will be the mover's discretion which option will be chosen. If the insurance is the owner's homeowner's insurance, the adjuster will decide what will be done.

If the owner does not like the settlement, it will likely go to arbitration.


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Re: Advice sought: move damage [Re: BDB] #2128332 08/05/13 02:50 AM
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Originally Posted by BDB
Originally Posted by ando
Originally Posted by BDB
But how many people specifically list a piano when it is moved? I suspect very few, especially since it costs more.


How many people pay more to insure their piano in a move? I'd say well over 50% if people I know are anything to go by.


Australian law is not applicable to the US. What is the law there?

I should point out that if this was an intrastate move, then state law would apply, and we do not know what state this occurred in. There is almost no information given about this move, except what happened, and what happened has almost nothing to do with what compensation there might be. It is a waste of time to discuss what should be done, unless we know:
1. What are the applicable laws?
2. What insurance was there?

Assuming that the regulations which apply are similar to the interstate rules, what is most likely is that there is little liability to the mover, if the mover was properly licensed. At worst, the mover's insurance rate will go up. If the mover was not properly licensed, one may sue and the sky is the limit, but you have to be able to collect it.

If the insurance was the federal statutory insurance based on weight, the compensation from the mover will be $0.60 per pound, or $456. If the insurance is the purchased insurance, the owner should be made whole by the means described on the page I referenced. Notice that it will be the mover's discretion which option will be chosen. If the insurance is the owner's homeowner's insurance, the adjuster will decide what will be done.

If the owner does not like the settlement, it will likely go to arbitration.


You're missing the point. You asked who goes to the trouble of purchasing extra protection for moving their piano. It's nothing to do with the laws of a given country. A contract is a contract, and yes, I know plenty of people in the US and I include them in my estimation that plenty of people pay extra to protect their piano. In fact, more people have their piano moved by a specialist piano mover, rather than a general mover. You make a lot of assumptions, BDB.

Re: Advice sought: move damage [Re: PianoWorksATL] #2128339 08/05/13 03:27 AM
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A suspicion is not an assumption. In this case, having had many pianos moved in my lifetime by specialty piano movers, and not once ever been told that I might need nor asked whether I wanted additional insurance, I would say that it might even be a reasonable assumption.

I am assuming that you do not know Australian law, much less American law. Prove me wrong and answer my question.


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Re: Advice sought: move damage [Re: PianoWorksATL] #2128392 08/05/13 08:16 AM
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The link provided by BDB, and is the source of the quote I provided, concerns the Federal regulations in the USA and is specifically set up to include interstate transport. It is the minimum standard unless the customer opts out and chooses to accept reduced coverage, meaning that the customer incurs the risk.

The piano and bench are listed as they are the only items under contract, unless this was the transport of full household items and furnishings. Either way, a piano is always listed on the bill of lading. Contracting with a licensed mover automatically gives the client this coverage.

For a full household move, if the moving company does the packing, all boxes are labeled, identified as to content, and "listed" as the to the type of items contained in each carton. If you do your own packing, it is up to you to "list" the items of exceptional value. However, this is not the purchase a rider, it is simple identification to be included with the moving contract, and thus is "listed."

There is confusion, in this discussion, concerning the type of insurance which would cover the claim. This is an issue of the coverage by the moving company and how the claim will be processed and executed. It has nothing to do with personal property and contents insurance, i.e.; home owners or renters insurance. There may be additional coverage, purchased as a rider, by the owner of the merchandise. However, the insurance of the moving company remains in effect.

The mover's insurance company must provide coverage to fulfill one of the following:
  • Repair the item
  • Replace with a similar item
  • Make a cash settlement for the cost of the repair or the current market replacement value

It will be interesting to see how this claim will be resolved.


Marty in Minnesota

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Re: Advice sought: move damage [Re: BDB] #2128470 08/05/13 11:35 AM
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Originally Posted by BDB
A suspicion is not an assumption. In this case, having had many pianos moved in my lifetime by specialty piano movers, and not once ever been told that I might need nor asked whether I wanted additional insurance, I would say that it might even be a reasonable assumption.

I am assuming that you do not know Australian law, much less American law. Prove me wrong and answer my question.


There you go again, more assumptions. BDB, you are honestly not worth the effort. You wouldn't know the first thing about me. I won't waste my breath trying to explain what I know about anything. You think you have the answers already. You have completely failed to comprehend what I was saying about insurance. You are the "stores" of this part of the forum: an agitator who only occasionally deigns to provide real content. Go harass somebody else.

Re: Advice sought: move damage [Re: PianoWorksATL] #2128500 08/05/13 12:30 PM
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Originally Posted by ando
There you go again, more assumptions. BDB, you are honestly not worth the effort. You wouldn't know the first thing about me. I won't waste my breath trying to explain what I know about anything. You think you have the answers already. You have completely failed to comprehend what I was saying about insurance. You are the "stores" of this part of the forum: an agitator who only occasionally deigns to provide real content. Go harass somebody else.

Hi Ando,

I honestly don’t think BDB meant to harass you… he is just blunt and straight forward with his debating style, for better or worse.

I think we all take things a little too personally here on occasion, including myself.

Speculation aside, it remains to be seen how this situation turns out... I hope Sam sees fit to keep us all informed of the outcome.

Rick


Piano enthusiast and amateur musician: "Treat others the way you would like to be treated". Yamaha C7. YouTube Channel
Re: Advice sought: move damage [Re: PianoWorksATL] #2128517 08/05/13 12:59 PM
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It seems that Australian law is similar to the law in the US, except that I cannot find any requirement that the mover offer repair or replacement insurance. This website offers some information. The part about the limitation of liability not really being insurance is probably a better explanation than I have seen elsewhere.

The moral of the story is to find out what the consequences of a bad move are before you book the move, not afterwards. We have not even covered damage to the building.


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Re: Advice sought: move damage [Re: PianoWorksATL] #2128522 08/05/13 01:06 PM
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Damage to what building? The damage occurred on the mover's truck.


Marty in Minnesota

It's much easier to bash a Steinway than it is to play one.
Re: Advice sought: move damage [Re: PianoWorksATL] #2128523 08/05/13 01:08 PM
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I was giving advice general about moving.


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Re: Advice sought: move damage [Re: PianoWorksATL] #2128531 08/05/13 01:29 PM
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Sam said that the move was from Atlanta to another state adjoining Georgia. This constitutes interstate commerce and Federal law applies.

Sam also said that the owner of the Steinway contacted a reputable local piano dealer, who made the moving arrangements with the moving company. If the Steinway owner contracted with the piano dealer, the damages would be covered by the dealer's insurance, regardless of the fact that the dealer subcontracted the move. However, if the Steinway owner dealt with the moving company directly, bypassing the piano dealer entirely from a contractual basis, the mover is responsible for the damages incurred. I can't imagine a moving company who moved pianos on a regular basis would not have the foresight to provide for the proper insurance, or that an owner of a Steinway B would not make sure that the mover was insured.

My question is - why isn't this just a routine damage claim to be handled either by the dealer's insurance or by the mover's insurance.

Re: Advice sought: move damage [Re: Almaviva] #2128546 08/05/13 02:02 PM
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Originally Posted by Almaviva
My question is - why isn't this just a routine damage claim to be handled either by the dealer's insurance or by the mover's insurance.

Actually it is. The original question, based on the limited details of the accident, was asking the forum for recommendations to the owner of the piano via Sam Bennett.

All of the potential horror stories have been speculation and unrelated to the topic of the thread.


Marty in Minnesota

It's much easier to bash a Steinway than it is to play one.
Re: Advice sought: move damage [Re: Minnesota Marty] #2128567 08/05/13 03:00 PM
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Originally Posted by Minnesota Marty
...speculation and unrelated to the topic of the thread.


But, isn't that what we do best here on PW???



Happiness is a freshly tuned piano.
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Re: Advice sought: move damage [Re: PianoWorksATL] #2128569 08/05/13 03:03 PM
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When I was looking for piano movers, their websites said that they carried liability insurance up to $1,000,000 for every move they had, and this was some kind of federal regulation. I'd be surprised if the movers here didn't carry enough insurance for this damage.

Like this: http://www.greenmountainpiano.com/ins-fmcsa.htm


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Re: Advice sought: move damage [Re: OperaTenor] #2128571 08/05/13 03:06 PM
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Originally Posted by OperaTenor
Originally Posted by Minnesota Marty
...speculation and unrelated to the topic of the thread.


But, isn't that what we do best here on PW???

YUP


Marty in Minnesota

It's much easier to bash a Steinway than it is to play one.
Re: Advice sought: move damage [Re: Almaviva] #2128661 08/05/13 07:59 PM
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Originally Posted by Almaviva
My question is - why isn't this just a routine damage claim to be handled either by the dealer's insurance or by the mover's insurance.
An insurance claim may be routine, but different expert opinions can lead to very different claim costs. I posted looking for additional ideas, anecdotes, thoughtful questions or insights beyond our own experience in an effort to be thorough.

Most damage claims are simple. They are either so severe that they exceed the value of the instrument, or they are repairable. But in this case, if the structural & acoustic concerns can be satisfied and hole repaired, the lasting effect to resale is hard to quantify but would certainly scare away many prospective future buyers.

Imagine this scenario. The piano gets a cosmetic repair to the soundboard and it performs the same as before. In a year, the owner decides the piano for unrelated reasons. Does it lower the resale by $5k? $10k? more?. Imagine the owner waits 10 years to sell. What will the market be like then? What would the impact be on resale then?


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