2017 was our 20th year online!

Welcome to the Piano World Piano Forums
Over 3 million posts about pianos, digital pianos, and all types of keyboard instruments
Join the World's Largest Community of Piano Lovers (it's free)
It's Fun to Play the Piano ... Please Pass It On!

Shop our online store for music lovers
SEARCH
Piano Forums & Piano World
(ad)
Wessell Nickel & Gross
PianoForAll
(ad)
Best of Piano Buyer
 Best of Piano Buyer
(ad)
Faust Harrison Pianos
Faust Harrison 100+ Steinway pianos
Who's Online Now
53 members (chopinetto, Banater, Abdol, Charles Cohen, c++, 36251, Anna B., 13 invisible), 397 guests, and 461 robots.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
(ad)
Estonia Pianos
Estonia Pianos
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Hop To
The China Exodus
#2127150 08/02/13 08:01 PM
Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 329
T
Full Member
OP Offline
Full Member
T
Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 329
Just a follow up to all the talk about China. Here is an article, one of many posted in the last month, indicating an Exodus of businesses from China's terrible business policies.

http://www.theepochtimes.com/n3/224201-foreign-investment-flees-china-despite-denials/

Not just this article but if you google "Investors Flee China" you'll find a litany of news sources stating the facts.

I hope of our friends in the piano community have protected themselves properly. If things go badly maybe they can move operations to Indonesia, Thailand or Taiwan... or even back to the US like what Google did recently for the Moto X smartphone plant.

You won't make as much money but you also won't be thrown under the bus by some CCP official padding his pockets with your hard earned money.


Charles Walter Model W (190)


“The aim and final end of all music should be none other than the glory of God and the refreshment of the soul.” J.S. Bach


"I just want to know, if we came from monkeys and apes, WHY DO WE STILL HAVE MONKEYS AND APES?" George Carlin
Re: The China Exodus
Theodore Slutz #2127159 08/02/13 08:28 PM
Joined: Jun 2013
Posts: 1,365
B
1000 Post Club Member
Offline
1000 Post Club Member
B
Joined: Jun 2013
Posts: 1,365
Interesting. It's been well understood that cheap labor doesn't last forever (think Japan, Taiwan, Korea, etc...), but for some reason I thought because of the size of China it would last a lot longer.

Soon we'll be debating the merits of Vietnamese pianos.

Re: The China Exodus
Theodore Slutz #2127178 08/02/13 09:02 PM
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 15,614
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 15,614
I'm all for closing down China and sever all trade relations.

Nothing nicer than selling only Steinways, Sauters and Estonias - to ourselves!

But this doesn't mean automatically it'll open up countries in the West and restore things where they once were.

Putting money back into your and my pocket.

In fact, quite the exact opposite seems to be case.

Better think things through VERY carefully.

Before pulling plug.

P.S. Which "plug"

Norbert eek

Last edited by Norbert; 08/02/13 09:07 PM.

www.heritagepianos.com
Greater Vancouver B.C. piano dealers for : Estonia, Brodmann, Ritmuller
604-951-8642
Re: The China Exodus
Theodore Slutz #2127215 08/02/13 10:17 PM
Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 329
T
Full Member
OP Offline
Full Member
T
Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 329
I think the issue is that there is a cancer in society called self entitlement. Meaning everybody thinks they deserve to have (insert item here). That's fine when you want everyone in society to improve with education or to buy instruments for music or buy books or computers but does everyone "deserve" a 70 inch TV? No. Does everyone deserve a pair of $200 basketball shoes or an iphone? NO. Yet society is subsidizing the banks that fail that extend credit to those thank think they deserve it all.

If we don't have cheap exploitative labor then people would simply settle for a 25 inch tv... boo hoo... and a flip phone instead of incessant texting on an iphone they can't afford. They will just have to make do.

I hate to say it but even though i can't stand Marx and the murderous actions of the socialists, there is something to the statement about "bourgeois excess". In the past spiritually inclined societies simply called it materialistic excess and it has almost always been attained on the backs of someone else.

Sorry about the social commentary, but its not political, just a historical statement.

Hopefully this change will be a lesson for us all.

Last edited by Theodore Slutz; 08/02/13 10:19 PM.

Charles Walter Model W (190)


“The aim and final end of all music should be none other than the glory of God and the refreshment of the soul.” J.S. Bach


"I just want to know, if we came from monkeys and apes, WHY DO WE STILL HAVE MONKEYS AND APES?" George Carlin
Re: The China Exodus
Theodore Slutz #2127219 08/02/13 10:22 PM
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 15,614
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 15,614
Theodore:

Interesting post - not toally disagreeing.

Interesting thinking....

Norbert

Last edited by Norbert; 08/02/13 11:28 PM.

www.heritagepianos.com
Greater Vancouver B.C. piano dealers for : Estonia, Brodmann, Ritmuller
604-951-8642
Re: The China Exodus
Theodore Slutz #2127230 08/02/13 10:44 PM
Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 195
A
Full Member
Offline
Full Member
A
Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 195
. . .


Last edited by Anne'sson; 08/02/13 10:49 PM.

Anne'sson
El Paso, TX
Re: The China Exodus
Theodore Slutz #2127280 08/03/13 01:07 AM
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 1,044
pno Offline
1000 Post Club Member
Offline
1000 Post Club Member
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 1,044
Epoch Times is the propaganda "newspaper" of "Falun Gong".


♫♫♫ ♫♫♫
YAMAHA C2M PE
Re: The China Exodus
Theodore Slutz #2127350 08/03/13 06:33 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 14,262
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 14,262
Would be glad to see more piano factories in the U.S.

If we used the latest techniques (robotics, CNC)could we produce an affordable piano?...Defining affordable piano as something like a decent 46-48" piano for around $6K.


TNCR. Over 20 years. Over 2,000,000 posts. And a new site...

https://nodebb.the-new-coffee-room.club

Where pianists and others talk about everything. And nothing.
Re: The China Exodus
Jolly #2127361 08/03/13 07:48 AM
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 11,092
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 11,092
Originally Posted by Jolly
Would be glad to see more piano factories in the U.S.

If we used the latest techniques (robotics, CNC)could we produce an affordable piano?...Defining affordable piano as something like a decent 46-48" piano for around $6K.


I have reason to think we can...and will.


Piano Industry Consultant

Contributing Editor & Consultant - Acoustic & Digital Piano Buyer

Jasons Music
Maryland/DC/No. VA
Family Owned and Operated Since 1937.

www.jasonsmusic.com
My postings, unless stated otherwise, are my personal opinions, not those of my clients.
Re: The China Exodus
Theodore Slutz #2127395 08/03/13 09:49 AM
Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 329
T
Full Member
OP Offline
Full Member
T
Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 329
PNO ... easy man... even a broken clock is right twice a day.

Who cares who prints facts if they are facts. I would understand your reaction if this was an editorial but this was a hard news story with facts. In addition dozens of other sources are quoted with these facts as well.

Here's CNBC: http://www.cnbc.com/id/100837313

Here's Wall Street Journal: http://blogs.wsj.com/moneybeat/2013/06/19/investors-flee-h-shares-after-weak-china-data/

Here's a NON US newspaper, "The Australian" Since you think all US newspapers are CIA propaganda fronts: http://www.theaustralian.com.au/bus...ors-fleeing/story-e6frg916-1226668933967

Those are just a few from the first page results on a Google search.

Sorry dude but the facts are the facts.

Last edited by Theodore Slutz; 08/03/13 09:51 AM.

Charles Walter Model W (190)


“The aim and final end of all music should be none other than the glory of God and the refreshment of the soul.” J.S. Bach


"I just want to know, if we came from monkeys and apes, WHY DO WE STILL HAVE MONKEYS AND APES?" George Carlin
Re: The China Exodus
Theodore Slutz #2127401 08/03/13 10:05 AM
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 389
N
Full Member
Offline
Full Member
N
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 389
I doubt those jobs will return to the US until healthcare costs stabilize. You also have the surety bond issue with certain states on hiring. Small business cannot afford to hire and large companies only use temps to avoid it. If you want to be a temp for 20 years then it's fine but don't expect benefits/retirement full time hire positions in the US in the future if the system cannot be fixed.

Another avenue of concern is HAPS/EPA and other regulations. Green factories are expensive.


J. Christie
Nashville Piano Rescue
www.NashvillePianoRescue.com
East Nashville
Bowling Green, KY
Scottsville KY.
Chamber of Commerce
Member/Sponsor

Putting inspiration in the hands of area musicians
Through restoration/renovation
Re: The China Exodus
Theodore Slutz #2127440 08/03/13 11:21 AM
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 4,126
4000 Post Club Member
Offline
4000 Post Club Member
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 4,126
Even .gov agencies are using temps more these days. Some one I work with told me she had replied to an ad for postal workers. As she is a former postal employee, she thought she might go back since the pay and benefits were not bad. She was told at her interview that all new hires are contract temporary workers only with no benefits whatsoever. Put an end to that idea.


Dennis
[Linked Image]
flickr

Re: The China Exodus
Theodore Slutz #2127468 08/03/13 12:29 PM
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 1,044
pno Offline
1000 Post Club Member
Offline
1000 Post Club Member
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 1,044
Originally Posted by Theodore Slutz
PNO ... easy man... even a broken clock is right twice a day.

...

Sorry dude but the facts are the facts.


Sorry I don't think it's the end of the world (or China or any other country for that matter). Investors come and go everyday. Economy rebalancing is a normal and necessary part of a cycle.


♫♫♫ ♫♫♫
YAMAHA C2M PE
Re: The China Exodus
Theodore Slutz #2127503 08/03/13 01:56 PM
Joined: Jun 2013
Posts: 1,365
B
1000 Post Club Member
Offline
1000 Post Club Member
B
Joined: Jun 2013
Posts: 1,365
What I find unfair is factories are constantly moving to cheaper countries, at the same time most countries have visa programs for people with advanced degrees, but there are few, if any, visa programs for low skilled workers. Displaced low-skilled workers in the US and Europe should be able to immigrate to China.

Of course I'm only half joking, but...also half serious. The system the way it is now makes many of the well educated people leave the cheap labor countries (brain drain) and all the low-skilled workers stuck unemployed in the expensive labor countries. Related to the benefits discussion, that oversupply of unemployed, low-skilled workers allows employers to offer low wages, no benefits, etc.

So this whole thing about "globalization" is a farce since it's only one-way, but it works really well for some. Perhaps one solution is for every single visa we issue for someone with an advanced degree, the source country needs to grant a visa for one of our low-skilled workers. LOL...that'll be the day.

Either way, the best way to survive an unfair system is to understand it and adapt, and if you have any energy left you can try to change it.

Re: The China Exodus
Theodore Slutz #2127928 08/04/13 11:27 AM
Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 321
R
Full Member
Offline
Full Member
R
Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 321
Originally Posted by Theodore Slutz
PNO ... easy man... even a broken clock is right twice a day.

Who cares who prints facts if they are facts. I would understand your reaction if this was an editorial but this was a hard news story with facts. In addition dozens of other sources are quoted with these facts as well.

Here's CNBC: http://www.cnbc.com/id/100837313

Here's Wall Street Journal: http://blogs.wsj.com/moneybeat/2013/06/19/investors-flee-h-shares-after-weak-china-data/

Here's a NON US newspaper, "The Australian" Since you think all US newspapers are CIA propaganda fronts: http://www.theaustralian.com.au/bus...ors-fleeing/story-e6frg916-1226668933967

Those are just a few from the first page results on a Google search.

Sorry dude but the facts are the facts.


Umm ... yes -- the headlines match, but not the content. The 3 articles quoted are talking about something quite different :-) And WSJ is talking about something a bit orthogonal to the other two.

Last edited by rlinkt; 08/04/13 11:27 AM.
Re: The China Exodus
Theodore Slutz #2128068 08/04/13 05:10 PM
Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 329
T
Full Member
OP Offline
Full Member
T
Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 329
Sigggghhhh..... Orthogonal? .... Damn, someone else found a thesaurus.

I'll tell you what I told a girlfriend of mine quite some time ago when arguing about high IQ people's deficiencies in identifying correlatives in juxtaposed subject matter:

"Your ability to contradict doesn't make you intelligent. Denial of facts means exactly that you are IN denial."

The China subject is a touchy one and nobody wants to see the people of China suffer more than they already have under the Party's agenda but the fact remains that the artificially propped up economy has been faltering in a major way for some time.

Pay attention what i am about to say everyone... listen closely!

"The Chinese Communist Party owns and controls ALL THE MEDIA IN THE COUNTRY OF CHINA!!!"

It only comes to the public through the STATE RUN MEDIA!!!

Are they going to admit to the public that their own policies have failed?

The roaring 2000's were used as a validation of the Communist Party's policies and the continued enforcement thereof. Now its time to pay the piper.

Just to be clear, I don't think China has the only economic system that's artificially manipulated... but that's another subject.



I'm excited for the future of China and the rest of the world in its relationship with it post communism. Look how well Russia has done since its change... China will do the same.


Charles Walter Model W (190)


“The aim and final end of all music should be none other than the glory of God and the refreshment of the soul.” J.S. Bach


"I just want to know, if we came from monkeys and apes, WHY DO WE STILL HAVE MONKEYS AND APES?" George Carlin
Re: The China Exodus
Theodore Slutz #2128169 08/04/13 08:37 PM
Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 321
R
Full Member
Offline
Full Member
R
Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 321
Originally Posted by Theodore Slutz
Sigggghhhh..... Orthogonal? .... Damn, someone else found a thesaurus.

No need to get personal -- please stick to the topic.

Re: The China Exodus
Theodore Slutz #2128253 08/04/13 11:01 PM
Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 329
T
Full Member
OP Offline
Full Member
T
Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 329
just a little friendly poking my friend... good word usage by the way, even if I don't agree with you


Charles Walter Model W (190)


“The aim and final end of all music should be none other than the glory of God and the refreshment of the soul.” J.S. Bach


"I just want to know, if we came from monkeys and apes, WHY DO WE STILL HAVE MONKEYS AND APES?" George Carlin
Re: The China Exodus
Theodore Slutz #2128277 08/04/13 11:32 PM
Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 321
R
Full Member
Offline
Full Member
R
Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 321
Agreement is absolutely not required -- debate is healthy.


Moderated by  Ken Knapp, Piano World 

Link Copied to Clipboard
(ad)
Pianoteq
Steinway Spiro Layering
(ad)
PianoDisc

PianoDisc
(ad)
Piano Life Saver - Dampp Chaser
Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver
(ad)
Mason & Hamlin Pianos
What's Hot!!
News from the Piano World
Our October 2020 Free Piano Newsletter is Here!
---------------------
3,000,000+!
------------------
Posting Pictures on the Forums
-------------------
Forums RULES & HELP
-------------------
ADVERTISE on Piano World
New Topics - Multiple Forums
Weinbach Grand--What the what?!
by jmiley97302 - 11/25/20 07:17 PM
Using the same music in two different pieces
by pianoloverus - 11/25/20 07:04 PM
first family piano for my 8-10 years old
by danyrc - 11/25/20 04:36 PM
Download Sheet Music
Virtual Sheet Music - Classical Sheet Music Downloads
Forum Statistics
Forums41
Topics203,044
Posts3,027,153
Members99,372
Most Online15,252
Mar 21st, 2010
Please Support Our Advertisers


Faust Harrison 100+ Steinways

Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver

 Best of Piano Buyer

PianoTeq Bechstein
Visit our online store for gifts for music lovers

Virtual Sheet Music - Classical Sheet Music Downloads



 
Help keep the forums up and running with a donation, any amount is appreciated!
Or by becoming a Subscribing member! Thank-you.
Donate   Subscribe
 
Our Piano Related Classified Ads
| Dealers | Tuners | Lessons | Movers | Restorations | Pianos For Sale | Sell Your Piano |

Advertise on Piano World
| Subscribe | Piano World | PianoSupplies.com | Advertise on Piano World |
| |Contact | Privacy | Legal | About Us | Site Map | Free Newsletter |


copyright 1997 - 2020 Piano World ® all rights reserved
No part of this site may be reproduced without prior written permission
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.4