Welcome to the Piano World Piano Forums
Over 2.5 million posts about pianos, digital pianos, and all types of keyboard instruments
Join the World's Largest Community of Piano Lovers (it's free)
It's Fun to Play the Piano ... Please Pass It On!

SEARCH
Piano Forums & Piano World
What's Hot!!
Hurricane Irma & Our Piano Friends!
--------------------
Posting Pictures on the Forums
-------------------
Forums RULES & HELP
-------------------
ADVERTISE on Piano World
(ad)
Virtual Sheet Music
Download Sheet Music Instantly
Virtual Sheet Music - Classical Sheet Music Downloads
Sheet Music...
(125ad)
Piano Life Saver - Dampp Chaser
Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver
(ad)
Piano Buyer Guide
Piano Buyer Spring 2017
(ad)
4th Finger Enigma Resolved!
Schumann's 4th Finger Enigma Resolved!
Who's Online Now
45 registered members (Bernhard Stopper, bennevis, barbaram, alfredo capurso, CyberGene, 10 invisible), 1,709 guests, and 2 spiders.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
(ad)
Estonia Pianos
Estonia Pianos
Quick Links to Useful Piano & Music Resources
Our Classified Ads
Find Piano Professionals-

*Piano Dealers - Piano Stores
*Piano Tuners
*Piano Teachers
*Piano Movers
*Piano Restorations
*Piano Manufacturers

Quick Links:
*Advertise On Piano World
*Free Piano Newsletter
*Online Piano Recitals
*Piano Recitals Index
*Piano & Music Accessories
*Live Piano Venues
*Music School Listings
* Buying a Piano
*Buying A Acoustic Piano
*Buying a Digital Piano
*Pianos for Sale
*Sell Your Piano
*How Old is My Piano?
*Directory/Site Map
*Virtual Piano
*Music Word Search
*Piano Videos
*Virtual Piano Chords & Scales
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
#2125494 - 07/30/13 07:10 PM Rear Duplex muting........?  
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 2,726
Grandpianoman Offline
2000 Post Club Member
Grandpianoman  Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 2,726
Portland, Oregon
Greetings....on this piano, a 1930 Weber "FR" Duo-Art Reproducer, the whole rear duplex is muted with felt, as you can see in the video. The bass section is pretty much the same with the thinner felt, but some duplex "noise" can be heard if you pluck or strum the strings in that area. There is no sound to the rear duplex of the rest of the piano with that thick red felt in place. The piano case is 6ft, however the piano itself is 4ft 8inc. It has excellent sustain on all the notes, inc the 5th octave all the way to note 88. Original soundboard!

[video:youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?tv=YIe9KX7dowY[/video]

My question is should I remove it and take a listen...was it something the factory did to suppress this noise one hears? It does not look like it's from 1930, more likely done about 20+ years ago when the treble was re-strung.

I suppose I could remove it fairly easily, getting it back in under the strings would be a bit of a hassle, especially under the wound bass strings. I did try muting the bass rear duplex area, but did not like the sound. I would like to know what it sounds like without it. What would you suggest? Is it worth removing and the hassle to put it back?

(ad 800)
PTG 2017 Convention
PTG Convention 2017 St Louis
#2125498 - 07/30/13 07:21 PM Re: Rear Duplex muting........? [Re: Grandpianoman]  
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 3,489
beethoven986 Offline
3000 Post Club Member
beethoven986  Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 3,489
Originally Posted by Grandpianoman
Is it worth removing and the hassle to put it back?


No. Trying to weave it in the duplex section underneath the bass strings would be a pain in the rear end.

#2125502 - 07/30/13 07:28 PM Re: Rear Duplex muting........? [Re: Grandpianoman]  
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 1,369
accordeur Offline
1000 Post Club Member
accordeur  Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 1,369
Québec, Canada
Remove just the top treble first, and then see....


Jean Poulin

Musician, Tuner and Technician

www.actionpiano.ca
#2125504 - 07/30/13 07:31 PM Re: Rear Duplex muting........? [Re: Grandpianoman]  
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 1,369
accordeur Offline
1000 Post Club Member
accordeur  Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 1,369
Québec, Canada
In my experience, the tenor rarely has a rear duplex, and is almost always muted with braiding.

It certainly does not look original, but in it's past maybe the owner liked a "drier" sound.

If it's all one piece (going under the struts of the plate) just use scissors to cut it.

I would try it.

All the best.



Jean Poulin

Musician, Tuner and Technician

www.actionpiano.ca
(ad)
Piano & Music Accessories
piano accessories music gifts tuning and moving equipment
#2125602 - 07/30/13 11:02 PM Re: Rear Duplex muting........? [Re: Grandpianoman]  
Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 390
Craig Hair Offline
Full Member
Craig Hair  Offline
Full Member

Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 390
Chesterfield. MA
It would be worthwhile to unweave a section and see if you like it. I suspect though that you will put the braid back. untuned rear "duplexes" of this sort just tend to contribute noise. Rather than gain anything musical, there is just a loss of purity. I have seen them with no muting, but more often they are braided like yours or are fitted with a strip of felt on the bead...usually orange for some reason.

OT As a man with a reproducer,(or two?)you may know someone who would have use for a complete duo-art mechanism. When I collected it, I was thinking I would someday find a Steinway ex-player. The players have come and gone and I am just never going to do anything with this, if I'm to be honest. It needs a home badly. Motor, bib, even the tags from the controll levers.


Craig Hair
Hampshire Piano
Chesterfield, MA
Conservative Piano Restoration

Sometimes, all you can hear is the cat snore.
#2125607 - 07/30/13 11:09 PM Re: Rear Duplex muting........? [Re: Grandpianoman]  
Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 534
TunerJeff Offline
500 Post Club Member
TunerJeff  Offline
500 Post Club Member

Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 534
Oregon Coast
I see a straight bearing bar here. A tuned duplex would have the bar parallel to the 3 bridgepins for each note (tenor/treble). Think of the appearance of the half-round bearing bars that many instruments use; they want all three segments of that duplex area to tune the same! Removing the felt, on the piano in the video, would not appear to gain a tuned rear segment...just three dissonant jangles of untuned noise.

My take is this is an original stringing/felting pattern, and you would not gain anything by pulling that felt. Noise, maybe....

Most pianos don't use a rear-tuned duplex until the midrange anyway...somewhere above middle-C most common, and I see no attempt to 'tune' that rear area at all. Just that straight (...ok, slightly curved) bar running across the plate.

Leave it!
Says I,
Yr. humble and ob't svt.,
I remain,


Jeffrey T. Hickey, RPT
Oregon Coast Piano Services
TunerJeff440@aol.com
#2125742 - 07/31/13 08:27 AM Re: Rear Duplex muting........? [Re: Grandpianoman]  
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 944
jim ialeggio Offline
500 Post Club Member
jim ialeggio  Offline
500 Post Club Member

Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 944
shirley, MA
GP,

It night be useful to know what you are looking to find in the sound that you feel is missing.

It always useful to try stuff just to see what happens...I do it all the time, and it's highly instructive. In this case, if you find anything at all, I think you'd find small amounts of un-musical noise, rather than complexity of sonority.

...But...got a piano question?...ask your piano...it will tell you. Its worth the effort to see "what happens if I"...

Jim Ialeggio

Last edited by jim ialeggio; 07/31/13 08:28 AM.

Jim Ialeggio
www.grandpianosolutions.com
advanced soundboard and action redesigns
978 425-9026
Shirley Center, MA
#2126009 - 07/31/13 05:19 PM Re: Rear Duplex muting........? [Re: Craig Hair]  
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 2,726
Grandpianoman Offline
2000 Post Club Member
Grandpianoman  Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 2,726
Portland, Oregon
Thanks guys.....i did a little sleuthing on the web for pics of this model piano...found a few, and they both had the same felt for the whole piano, and found one that did not. Craig, Jeff, I also listened to a few notes without the felt....not that much difference in the overall tone, however, the 3 strings of each note did have this "out of tune" noise that area. I think having the whole piano without the felt would not have the best sound. The wound bass notes do sound better without braiding.

I have seen discussions here on PW in regards to a "tuneable" rear duplex...the jury seems to be out whether it contributes positively to the overall sound. My M&H has individual bars that can be moved for each note. It's never been done on my piano as long as I have had it. The rebuilder told me he marked each bar before he removed them, and placed them back in the same position.

Jim, it was just out of curiosity and a desire to improve the sound of this 4ft 8 grand.

#2126028 - 07/31/13 06:07 PM Re: Rear Duplex muting........? [Re: Grandpianoman]  
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 335
Bojan Babic Offline
Full Member
Bojan Babic  Offline
Full Member

Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 335
Vojvodina, Serbia
I have struggled for years to get clear treble tones on one old grand piano, and could not succeed until I inserted a felt stripe between the strings of the duplex in the treble section. It made tones much more clear.


Bojan Babic
piano technician and tuner
Sid, Vojvodina, Serbia
_____________________________
bojanbabic@yahoo.com
www.klaviri.blogspot.com

Moderated by  Piano World 

Piano Acc. & Gift Items in
Piano World's Online Store
In PianoSupplies.com ,(a division of Piano World)
our online store for piano and music gifts and accessories, Digital Piano Dolly, party goods, tuning equipment, piano moving equipment, benches, lamps Caster Cups and more.


Free Shipping* on Jansen Artist Piano Benches, Cocoweb Piano Lamps, Hidrau Hydraulic Piano Benches
(*free shipping within contiguous U.S. only)
(ad)
Pearl River
Pearl River Pianos
(ad)
Pianoteq
PianoTeq 6 Out now
(ad)
Lindeblad Piano
Lindeblad Piano Restorations and sales
ad
Pierce Piano Atlas


New Topics - Multiple Forums
Casio GP400
by Nordomus. 09/20/17 04:56 AM
Shipping insurance from Canada to Asia
by zanarkanda. 09/20/17 12:31 AM
Voicing Lead Sheets/ Fake Books?
by MacMorrighan. 09/19/17 09:34 PM
Iconic Out of Tune Pianos
by That Guy. 09/19/17 09:08 PM
Do technicians play the piano or just work on them?
by Lakeviewsteve. 09/19/17 08:24 PM
Forum Statistics
Forums44
Topics181,945
Posts2,658,877
Members88,871
Most Online15,252
Mar 21st, 2010
(ad)
Accu-Tuner
Sanderson Accu-Tuner
Check It Out!
There's a lot more to Piano World than just the forums.
Click Here to
Explore The Rest of Piano World!!
Visit our online store for gifts for music lovers


 
Help keep the forums up and running with a donation, any amount is appreciated!
Or by becoming a Subscribing member! Thank-you.
Donate   Subscribe
 
Our Piano Related Classified Ads
| Dealers | Tuners | Lessons | Movers | Restorations | Pianos For Sale | Sell Your Piano |

Advertise on Piano World
| Subscribe | Piano World | PianoSupplies.com | Advertise on Piano World |
| |Contact | Privacy | Legal | About Us | Site Map | Free Newsletter |


copyright 1997 - 2017 Piano World ® all rights reserved
No part of this site may be reproduced without prior written permission
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.6.0