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Re: Yamaha vs Roland vs Casio? [Re: StarvingLion] #2124537 07/29/13 12:24 AM
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Originally Posted by StarvingLion
Yeah, I get the message now. I think there is consensus here that nothing below the P-155 (cost of $1000 cdn) feels like an acoustic. Even the P-105 won't cut it.

So the 155 it shall be. The ES7 at 1880.00 is just too much.


Originally Posted by StarvingLion
I'm glad I never bought the p-155 because I don't believe I will be happy with any digital piano. Its a computer, not a piano.

[signing off...my last post in the digital forum]


Originally Posted by StarvingLion
"Those plasticky keys on the 155 sure didn't feel like a piano to me.


Originally Posted by StarvingLion
The Casio PX-850 is as good as its ever going to get in fake piano land. Thats why I just ordered one.


Originally Posted by StarvingLion
I ordered an PX-850 because none of those $2K pianos or the hyped V-piano has much to offer for a classical beginner.

The 850 is a better deal than the P-155.


Originally Posted by StarvingLion
Yamaha P-105 [Best action money can buy for £500]


Originally Posted by StarvingLion
A real key bed weights 70-80lbs. Be my guest in trying to lug that thing around. May as well be 450lbs like a real piano. A P-105 weights 26lbs and that is hard to carry. And the prices of these "advanced" piano's are a joke.

What i wanted is the P-155 with state of the art samples and no speakers. Something like that will probably never exist.


Originally Posted by StarvingLion
Don't let the super satisfied Casio full meal deal people fool you. Get the Yamaha.


---

Originally Posted by StarvingLion
P-155
PX-850
F-120

None of those pianos are special. Its just more money for gimmicks compared to the Yamaha P-105.

The in-between stuff at $1K-2K is a waste of money. Consoles are pretty particle board junk.

The only decent hassle free piano's priced right are
Yamaha P-105 (starter)
Kawai MP10 (advanced)
Roland RD-700nx

The VCP1 is a lot of hassle and extra expense for nothing. Just disable the internal sound generator on a hardware piano if you don't like it.


Originally Posted by StarvingLion
Beginner


Take advice with a large dose of salt.

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Re: Yamaha vs Roland vs Casio? [Re: MacMacMac] #2124583 07/29/13 02:24 AM
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"gv: Oh! How tempting to react to the madness! But we must always remember the first rule of the internet: Don't feed the trolls! smile"

He`s said nothing offensive to anybody here. He has strong opinions and conveys them fluntly albeit a tad hyped.

I like to hear him; a bit o` fresh air. So back off.


"I am not a man. I am a free number"

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Re: Yamaha vs Roland vs Casio? [Re: peterws] #2124744 07/29/13 11:12 AM
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Originally Posted by peterws


I like to hear him; a bit o` fresh lot o' hot air.


Fixed that for ya.

And some more reading for ya....

Re: Yamaha vs Roland vs Casio? [Re: Hungry Wolf] #2124754 07/29/13 11:33 AM
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EEEEhhh man - yer too kind! Have ye a goodly one


"I am not a man. I am a free number"

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Re: Yamaha vs Roland vs Casio? [Re: peterws] #2125071 07/30/13 12:10 AM
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Thank you so much for the detailed advice and thanks also for letting me know that Kawai is not a 'less bang for the buck' brand. I'll pretty much be playing it with headphones all the time, and I'll take everything in consideration when I go down to the dealer soon. (:

Re: Yamaha vs Roland vs Casio? [Re: kenneth95] #2125247 07/30/13 10:57 AM
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Dan Clark,

May I ask: what software are you using to display sheet music? I've never been good at turning pages while sight reading, so some kind of sheet music software with an easy "turn the page" shortcut key would be fantastic.

Re: Yamaha vs Roland vs Casio? [Re: kenneth95] #2125273 07/30/13 11:49 AM
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I'm not Dan, but I do display my music the same way he does, with a monitor. I personally use pdf-xchange viewer because it allows me to mark up my pdf's as well. However, either that or adobe works fine if you put them into two-page mode and presentation or fullscreen mode. Then hitting the spacebar will flip to the next two pages. Hitting the spacebar is a lot faster and easier than turning physical pages in a book or something, though to go back you have to use the pageup key.

Some enterprizing forum members figured out some time ago how to map the left pedal (which is infrequently used) to the pagedown key with a MIDI translator so they could turn pages without using their hands at all. Pretty sweet. There are also aftermarket devices to do the same thing without going through the midi.

Re: Yamaha vs Roland vs Casio? [Re: kenneth95] #2341214 10/25/14 12:12 AM
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Does anyone here know where Casio and Roland truly gets their sound from? I have read that Roland mixes a Steinway and I believe Bosendorfer together, While Casio takes a sample from an unknown concert grand and then edits it.. All I simply want in a DP are Steinway samples. Casio and Roland seem to be as close at gets...

Re: Yamaha vs Roland vs Casio? [Re: kenneth95] #2341215 10/25/14 12:40 AM
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AnimistFvR

The Nord Piano products have access to Steinway samples (in addition to excellent grand piano samples of fazioli, bosendorfer, yamaha, etc... and also in addition to many samples of various upright pianos). I have a vague memory that kurzweil may use a steinway for (some of) its samples, but I'm not positive about that. Of course, you can always choose from various computer based samples of steinway pianos if you don't mind hooking your keyboard up to a computer, then pretty much any keyboard with midi functionality will get you what you need.

Warm Regards


Nord Stage 2 HA88
Roland RD800
Re: Yamaha vs Roland vs Casio? [Re: AnimistFvR] #2341267 10/25/14 08:41 AM
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Steinway is probably the most common sampled piano to find in any models that are not from acoustic piano manufacturers. That is, Yamaha digital pianos use samples of Yamahas, Kawai samples Kawais, and pretty much everyone else includes a Steinway. There are still plenty of variations, both because not all Steinway pianos sound the same, and also there are differences in manufacturers' sampling techniques... mic placement, amount of looping/stretching, number of velocity layers, etc. But I'm pretty sure that any Casio, Kurzweil, Nord, or Korg DP or workstation will give you a Steinway sample, either as its only piano sample, or as one of the choices.

Even within these brands, though, there are variations. The Kurzweil Forte has their newest, biggest Steinway samples, followed by the Artis, and than the "triple strike" version used in all the rest of their models. Korg's most sophisticated Steinway sample is in the Kronos, second would be Krome, and the rest are smaller, lesser sample sets. (Sample set size isn't eveything, but within a single brand, it is a good indicator of which will sound better than which.) Nord has numerous Steinway samples that either come in the board or can be downloaded from their web site.


Re: Yamaha vs Roland vs Casio? [Re: anotherscott] #2341829 10/27/14 12:07 AM
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I appreciate such a detailed and informative response. I realized Steinway is a loved piano company, but I hadn't realized so many DP companies use Steinway for their samples... However, the biggest question I have remains unanswered. What does Casio do to their sound? (I know this may be impossible to know, but if it isn't I'd love to know) The Casio Privia PX850 is RIGHT in my price range... But one thing worries me a bit.. I still want their sound to be similar to that of a Steinway concert grand... (I am fairly new to digital pianos) Does Casio edit their sound to it is virtually impossible to tell that it was sampled from a Steinway? I've been reading about everyone being in love with Casio's latest line-up... In all honesty the PX850 seems quite impressive, but I am truly just looking for, the closest I could get to a Steinway sound... Roland is pretty much out of the picture for me because IMO they are a bit overpriced... Yamaha is a possibility... I have definitely narrowed down to these two. Now I know I said I want a Steinway sample, but if Casio doesn't deliver much resemblance to a Steinway in sound, I will go with Yamaha. Any opinions on the matter are helpful.

Re: Yamaha vs Roland vs Casio? [Re: fizikisto] #2341840 10/27/14 01:19 AM
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I truly do appreciate the response. I considered Nord, however my price range is more in the $1,000-$1,600 area.. So Casio may be my only option anyway. Not that that's a bad thing ! I believe it sounds excellent, I was just looking for alternatives to check out just in case. Sadly Nord is in the $2,000+ price range. Thank you for the info though. I will apply what I have learned to a future purchase. Yes I have considered VST too... but I must do research on them. (I am leaning towards Synthogy Ivory II)

Re: Yamaha vs Roland vs Casio? [Re: kenneth95] #2341841 10/27/14 01:25 AM
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If you're in the 1000-1600 range, you'd be doing yourself a disservice by not looking at the Roland F-130R and RP401R.


Formerly in the business. Now just a piano fan.
Re: Yamaha vs Roland vs Casio? [Re: JayGVan] #2341876 10/27/14 04:52 AM
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I see. I'll definitely have to have a look at them. Thanks.

Re: Yamaha vs Roland vs Casio? [Re: AnimistFvR] #2341913 10/27/14 08:54 AM
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Originally Posted by AnimistFvR
the biggest question I have remains unanswered. What does Casio do to their sound?... Does Casio edit their sound to it is virtually impossible to tell that it was sampled from a Steinway?

I'm not sure what you mean by "edit." All the keyboards I mentioned give you Steinway samples, they will all sound like the Steinway pianos they were sampled from. Steinway pianos themselves can vary in sound. Mic'ing techniques can also vary the sound, and mapping the velocity differences of the original to the response of the digital is an imperfect art, and unless you get a much more expensive board (i.e. Korg Kronos), all the manufacturers stretch and/or loop their samples (some more than others, as higher priced pianos generally have more memory to work with than lower priced ones), and perhaps they use EQ, compression, or other techniques to try to improve the result (i.e. help it play more evenly, help hide the loop and stretch points), but they will all sound basically like the Steinway piano they came from. The speakers you are playing through (often the speakers that are built into the piano) will also make a difference. I wouldn't say that everyone's Steinway reproduction sounds as good as everyone else's, but they will all sound basically like the piano that generated the samples. I'm sure that if you heard the Casio next to the Steinway it was sampled from, you would be able to recognize the tone, it would not be altered beyond recognition. Whether you're happy with playing their end result, only you can tell.

And as fizikisto said, you can also hook any board up to a computer, and get more Steinway sounds that way, as there are a variety of manufacturers of VST pianos who offer Steinway samples. If you'd want to play those sounds through a piano's built-in speakers, you'd need to have a piano that includes the Line Input feature.

Re: Yamaha vs Roland vs Casio? [Re: anotherscott] #2342382 10/28/14 11:54 AM
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Everything you're telling me has helped me so much in deciding so far.. By edit I mean what my original post mentioned. Well before I bring this up let me mention that I understand what you're telling me. I thought that maybe a brand such as Casio used Steinway as THEIR BASES, and then fixed the sound to have a more generic piano sound if that makes sense to you, rather than a Steinway in particular. Now here is something that I have been researching for AHWHILE now.... Roland. I am not sure what Roland does to their sound ! I'm not a fan of their "SuperNATURAL" technology... On a Youtube video titled something along the lines of "What is Roland's SuperNATURAL Technology?" There is a direct comparison between one of Roland's keyboards, and a Steinway concert grand... They sounded somewhat similar to each other, which of course you mentioned that since it's the recording the piano, of course they would... but why does Roland sound so metallic? A Steinway is more mellow than metallic, making it great for emotional-like music, but Roland's sound is just metallic sounding to me... more than a Steinway should sound. Sorry, I am trying to learn so much at once.

Re: Yamaha vs Roland vs Casio? [Re: kenneth95] #2342396 10/28/14 12:43 PM
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Roland is a little different from most DP manufacturers, because instead of just playing back samples, many of their DP sounds combine sampling with modeling... mathematical algorithms designed to generate additional sound information extending beyond what's in the samples themselves in an attempt to make the samples play more naturally and organically than a fixed amount of sampled information might be able to allow. Some people love the results, as the otherwise audible artifacts of looping, stretching, and velocity layer switches disappear; other people find the results not completely natural or authentic to the sound of a real piano. But yes, AFAIK, they also get most (all?) of their sampled piano sounds originally from a Steinway.

Edit: As an aside, is there a reason your sound must be based on a Steinway? If you were shopping for an actual grand in a piano store and happened to come across a Yamaha, Kawai, Bosendorfer, Bluthner, whatever that you enjoyed playing more than whatever Steinway you had played, would you necessarily rule it out because it wasn't Steinway?

Last edited by anotherscott; 10/28/14 12:50 PM.
Re: Yamaha vs Roland vs Casio? [Re: anotherscott] #2342402 10/28/14 12:53 PM
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The result doesn't end in a Steinway sound (I UNDERSTAND THAT NONE OF THEM ARE THE EXACCCCTTTT SAME.) for some reason to my ears.... Maybe I should listen to more of their sound? So Roland is essentially trying to make their samples EXACTLY like a Steinway? If so, I may consider them, but if they're trying to make it THEIR OWN sound, I am not interested as much, but will still research a bit. Alright so I suppose I just want a direct answer for this one. Does Roland try to make their pianos sound like a real Steinway? Or their own unique sound?

Absolutely not haha. There's just something about Steinway that I really like. Now when I buy an actual grand in later years, it will more than likely NOT be a Steinway.... Too expensive. I would probably choose Yamaha, however in my current place, I am unable to spend over $2,000 on a DP. So that MIGHT rule Roland out? But I still need to check out two models that were recommended to me. And for Yamaha, I sort of want my DP in a cabinet design... (DOESN'T HAVE TO BE) And for Roland and Yamaha a DP in a cabinet design exceeds $3,000+ With Casio, I could get one for $1,099... So I am leaning towards them, but I am still looking. Maybe my budget can increase.

Last edited by AnimistFvR; 10/28/14 01:17 PM.
Re: Yamaha vs Roland vs Casio? [Re: AnimistFvR] #2342602 10/28/14 08:29 PM
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Originally Posted by AnimistFvR
. Maybe I should listen to more of their sound? So Roland is essentially trying to make their samples EXACTLY like a Steinway? If so, I may consider them, but if they're trying to make it THEIR OWN sound, I am not interested as much, but will still research a bit. Alright so I suppose I just want a direct answer for this one. Does Roland try to make their pianos sound like a real Steinway? Or their own unique sound?

Absolutely not haha. There's just something about Steinway that I really like. Now when I buy an actual grand in later years, it will more than likely NOT be a Steinway.... Too expensive. I would probably choose Yamaha, however in my current place, I am unable to spend over $2,000 on a DP. So that MIGHT rule Roland out? But I still need to check out two models that were recommended to me. And for Yamaha, I sort of want my DP in a cabinet design... (DOESN'T HAVE TO BE) And for Roland and Yamaha a DP in a cabinet design exceeds $3,000+ With Casio, I could get one for $1,099... So I am leaning towards them, but I am still looking. Maybe my budget can increase.


This has been going around in circles for a while. I will try and throw a monkey wrench into the gears.

Jay Roland has answered the question about Roland vs Steinway, in an old post. Paraphrased:

. . The Roland "SuperNatural sound" is a combination of several
. . different piano samples, combined and processed, and using
. . Roland's proprietary modelling techniques for enhancement.

So it's not a Steinway, and it's not _trying_ to be a Steinway. It's a Roland. People like it, or not.

There is substantial variation, between different Roland models, in that "SuperNatural" sound. Playing an F130R sounds _really different_ from playing an FP-80.

A question:

. . . If _you_ sit down, blindfolded, in front of a Steinway,
. . . a Yamaha, a Bechstein, a Kawai (all of the same size):

. . . . Can _you_ identify which one is the Steinway?

If you can't tell the difference, or you're not sure, my suggestion:

. . . Try out a bunch of DP's with good headphones, and buy the one
. . . you like the most. It's a purely subjective decision.

If you _can_ tell the difference:

. . . Try out a bunch of DP's with good headphones, and buy the one
. . . that sounds most like a Steinway _to you_.

If that doesn't sit right with you, I'd suggest getting a software piano (like "Vintage D") that _does_ start with a Steinway sample. That way, you know (more or less) what you're buying, and how it's going to sound.

And if _sound_ (rather than "action") is most imnportant to you, you can drive it with a Casio PX-150 (or Yamaha P105) to reduce your cost to a minimum.

. Charles





. Charles
---------------------------
PX-350 / microKorg XL+ / Pianoteq / Lounge Lizard / EV ZXA1 speaker
Re: Yamaha vs Roland vs Casio? [Re: Charles Cohen] #2342620 10/28/14 09:12 PM
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Thank you for clearing the smoke. Both of you have helped me so much I could not even express my gratitude. I have heard that Roland mixes piano sounds together to have their own sound... but wanted to be sure. I.. am not sure if I'm a fan of their sound. As I said before, it is too metallic for my taste. Yamaha is right in the sweet spot for me. My first piano was a Yamaha. I wasn't disappointed. I have my respect for Roland, but their sound is too metallic. Not only that, if I were to like the sound of a certain DP that sampled a piano with raw sound, no mixing different samples like Roland, they may encourage me to buy the REAL one later on. My budget has increased up to around $2,500 fortunately. I have already tried both DPs. I cannot express enough how unattractive a Roland is to my ears.... But that's just me. Roland has their respected fan base of course. I have heard that Casio (even the latest PX850) doesn't sound like an actual grand piano, and the keys are too light so you don't build up any muscle. I do not have the opportunity to try a Casio though. I do not really want to buy one, then be disappointed with what I have purchased. I have been warned to avoid Casio, so for the next DP I buy, it will not be a Casio. I will find a way to try out a Casio whenever I decide to upgrade pianos again. (If I ever need to depending on how happy I am with my purchase). Since Korg and Nord seem to be more synthesizer/arranger type keyboards, they do not interest me too much. I will look at them for a bit longer, but so far, I am not intrigued. So to sum everything up, I believe I'll go with the Yamaha unless Korg or Nord amazes me to the point of switching. AGAIN, Thank you all.

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