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I don't disagree. All I'm suggesting that perhaps we should test the waters a bit before diving in. Or at least start with the positive, establish a dialog, and then qualify your constructive comments with "you might want to consider doing x, y and z." That way a relationship is established, your points are made, and everyone walks away feeling good about the experience.

I remember one poor guy (college student - non music major) a couple of years ago who, as a first time poster, offered a video of himself playing the Heroic Polonaise in a student recital. He was obviously proud of his accomplishment, but many good folk here immediately jumped in and pretty much ripped the performance to shreds (i.e., with comments like "you need to go back and start from the drawing board," etc.) At the end of the thread, the kid basically told us where to go - and he never (to the best of my knowledge) ever posted anything here again. I think the experience he had here goes against the real purpose of these forums - which is to foster a sense of community, share our love of playing the piano, and encouraging each other to be the best players we can become.

edit: nvm

As "Carey" has succinctly stated, the purposive nature of this forum is to learn.

Therefore, as I am a big believer in "show and tell," I will now furnish the following link of a concert pianist performing this piece, who learned it from his teacher (Emil Descombes) who was a teaching assistant of Fred Chopin.

Enjoy! And, notice the rolled chords, throughout.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lb45wt8RXco

*rolls eyes*

Dear All

First - thank you all for listening and commenting.
Time is the biggest value of one and knowing that you spent your time listening to my recording is a big honor. Especially big thank you to those who took the effort and listened more than once and analysed the performance.

About the recording in the studio - unfortunately the piano was a lot below the expectations and the pedal squeaked. That makes me a bit sad but is a good experience - never record without being exactly sure what type of instrument do you have there even if it is known as a "professional studio". So in a way it is my mistake as well.

Also I have to admit that I could not perform the Chopin perfectly at the level that I would like to play it and I do not want to have a "cut" version. So more work to do and probably a new recording in a better studio.

At the same time I could play the other piece (Estonian piece "Clocks" by Heino Eller) well enough to have it uncut but there is again the pedal issue. So maybe I will post it and share the link as well (if you do not mind the pedal sqeaks..)

Also when I have a bit more time I will answer all your comments personaly because I feel that I would like to do it very much.

Best wishes for now!
Jaak

Hi,

The response is not too thorough but I try to answer everybody who participated in the debate.

@Goomer Piles - Thank you very much! Positive feedback insires and gives energy and belief to go on.

@Orange Soda King - Thank you very much for kind words.

@Andy - Thank you Andy for your supportive and friendly (at the same time witty) behaviour.
I still remember your comments and our conversations well

@Ployphonist - Honesty is one of the most important elements in music. I do not think that you said anything wrong or intentionally bad.
I believe that you just said out your opinion and did it in a straight-forward way, which is the clearest one.
I thought about everything you said and considered your response thoroughlly.

I have my own musical taste just as Polyphonist. Before saying that something is good or bad I let it go through myself and then make my observations.
If I do not agree with something, I usually have a reason why and I never take it personally(or at least try not to take).

If there is something I can improve or I got a new piece of information I am very thankful to the person who shared his thoughts.
I think that sharing a sincere opinion is honorable and often quite a courageous act.

So thank you!

@Elene - Thank you very much for your kind words. And I agree, there are places that I am not fully happy with.
And it is not a performance of "pure music" yet.

@Ansatz737 - thank you so much for your good words. But I agree, the beginning could be more energetic.

@Dear DameMyra - your comment is full of tact and it reflects a person with high musical taste and clarity in thinking and ear.
Also leaves a very positive feeling. I considered everything that you wrote on the forum.
So thank you very much!!

@Nikolas - Thank you for listening and commenting and also for your good words. So thank you.

P.S. You are right - there are some wrong notes in the performance (they bother my ears too).


About the purpose of the recording - just for the sake of learning and for myself and my blog and for posting on the web.
You never know why do you one moment could need the recording for. Although it is a great memory later and when I perform it in the future
it is a good start to listen to the recording that I once did before warming it up.
I can not say anything wiser here

@Schubertslieder - thank you for your nice words!

@carey - thank you for your attention
I am very thankful for all the feedback.

@Louis Podesta - yes, I listened to that also before learning the piece. A good representation of those times, probably.
Interesting and creates thoughts.

Thank you all very much!
I love pianoworld and these forums.

Best wishes,
Jaak

I am currently in the process of polishing up this piece, so I am very familiar with it.

One thing that needs to be brought out about the Ballades in general is there is very much a story telling aspect to them. Therefore, a mechanical strict tempo really doesn't work in my opinion, and that is what we have with this post, unfortunately.

The young man has an enormous amount of facility, but facility does not necessarily equate with musicality. Otherwise, every DMA or Performance Certificate graduate would be a great concert pianist, and that, as we know, is simply not the case.

So, instead of critiquing this or that section, I will leave you with a version recorded by a student of Emil Descombes, who was one of Chopin's teaching assistants. It has all of the character and charm that this great piece should have.

And, just like I have been telling you for some time now, it has arpeggiation and asynschronization, which is the way most people played Chopin in the 19th and early 20th century.

Also, Carl Friedberg, who studied this piece under Clara Schumann, and also Jorge Bolet, play the small octave run with two hands. If you don't pedal it, it is a piece of cake.

Enjoy the link. And, as a matter of fact, I would recommend that you study it judiciously.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lb45wt8RXco

Perhaps a constructive critique - if you would make the effort and condescend to offer one - would have more meaning by pinpointing areas that need work than a recording illustrating a style of playing that is no longer in vogue.



Is not the assumption - which your frequent posts on this subject seem to suggest - that the fashion in which one played Chopin in the 19th century is the only way to play Chopin today somewhat misguided? It is beginning to wear a little thin, in my opinion.

Bruce, I almost hate to disagree with you on this one, if not for this: As a house painter by trade, I would say Louis is laying it on a bit too thick.

Of course both are true.
They were already the case about 3 months ago.

Louis, I think you'd do better in terms of the dialogue as well as (may I suggest) for the furthering of your own undestandings if you would try to engage in more of a give-and-take than just saying "this is how you should do it."


P.S. to CB: If you're a house painter by trade, then by what are you the rest of what you are?

Hi,

Loius, thank you for listening and also you suggestions.

In 19. century pianists and composers were very much mixed. Great pianists were often great composers and vice versa. Because of that it was very common that the text was strongly changed on stage and the momentum altered the score very much. The author of the text could change it with no remorse.

Probably, due to that even the so called pianist-pianists had a tendency to look at the text as something changeable. There are recordings of great pianists still from the beginning of 20. cent. where even the note text of Chopin is very much changed and this kind of action was still considered as "wonderful" and "natural". Altering the original score and changing the text was considered as a normal part of musicians ability. (I also consider ignoring the authentical dynamic marks etc. as changing the text.)

Now let me ask this: "If the common way in these times was changing the text, (basically as one wanted. Even Liszt's own students changed the text of Liszt) is playing exactly according to the score and trying to understand all the details that are in the score and expressing them, less Chopin than playing of those who "did whatever they wanted" with the score at these times?

I do not want to say that "I do not like that recording of Cortot" as I consider it something interesting and great as historical evidence and there are also things that one can learn. At the same time I have no desire to develop my playing skills towards the style or way of his playing and I gues if one listens to that recording he/she will probably understand why.

Best wishes,
Jaak

For the record, one of Carey's piano teachers, the late Richard Cass, chose to get his License de Concert at the Paris Conservatory. And, one of his teachers was Cortot.

Did Richard Cass play like Cortot? No, he did not.

Tens of thousands of students came from all over the world to study Chopin with this man because of his direct links to the composer, and his overall exquisite musicianship.

So, it seems that we have a few interested parties here. Therefore, let us take a vote on the Cortot rendering of this Ballade.

Finally, my goal is not to convert anyone to any particular method of playing. However, the original historically accurate method of playing the piano was being taught at Juillard until 1946 by Stojowski and Friedberg, and at Curtis until the 1990's by Horszowski.

I find it unconscionable that a certain set of, in my opinion, pseudo-intellectual musicologists got it into their heads that there should be a Urtext method of piano pedagogy. It did not exist in the 19th century because it would have be fraud to do so then, and it is fraud to do so now.

My goal is, however, to expose the world's pianists and the public in general to the manner in which the piano was originally played. To date, every person I have showed this to, whether they had piano lessons or not, found this type of playing to be beautiful. They notice instantly how musical it is compared to the sterile note perfect playing they hear on their classical radio station.

Because, nine out of ten young piano students quit after a couple of year, and my gut tells me that when they hear what it was originally supposed to sound like, the arguments presented here for the modern school of playing will no longer matter.

So, haul up the Cortot version, and while you are at it play Abbey Simon's which is supposed to be one of the best. It doesn't even sound like the same piece, and that is the point!

He most definitely did not. (I once heard Cass play all four of the Ballades in a recital. Marvelous !!)



Personally, I found the Cortot interpretation of the Ballade rather intriguing.



I agree it is important for folks to be aware of how performance practices have, indeed, changed over the years. Keep fighting the good fight, Louis !!

Carey: Maybe help us out in trying to help him fight the fight better.

I think y'all are doing a good job of that without my assistance.

Maybe, but with virtually no success. I think you could help. (You, he might believe.)

Call me naive, but I think we can help people do better.

Remember the character "Bert" in Mary Poppins? Somedays it's chimneys... Somedays it's chalk drawings... Somedays it's kites... It's like that. By which I mean to say, I have lots of interests and manage to cobble together a living doing them. But that is not who I am.

Now, as to laying it on a bit thick or thin, I am reminded of a story. A painter called Jock, (no relation to Jaak) was interested in making a penny where he could, so he often would thin down paint to make it go a wee bit further. As it happened, the local church decided to do a big restoration job. Because his price was so low, Jock got the job. And so he set up the scaffolding and the planks, bought the paint and, yes, I am sorry to say, thinned it down with turpentine.

The job was nearly completed when suddenly there was a horrendous clap of thunder, which knocked Jock off the scaffold. The sky opened, and the rain poured down, washing the thinned paint from the sides of the church.

Jock was no fool. Soaked by the rain, laying among the gravestones, surrounded by telltale puddles of thinned and useless paint, and glad to be alive, he knew this was a judgment from the Almighty. So he got on his knees and cried: "Oh, God! Forgive me! What should I do?"

And from the thunder, a mighty voice spoke...

"Repaint! Repaint! And thin no more!"

But I still think Louis is laying it on too thick. That is my professional opinion.

--Andy

Mark - I'm taking the above comments in Louis' most recent post at face value. Yes, he is passionate about this subject and can come off a bit strong when making his case. Yes, some folks here are put off by his (perceived) inflexibility. Yes, he might be more persuasive if he were to use a different approach. But ultimately how Louis chooses to communicate is his decision - and I respect that.

I'm currently preparing to record Chopin's Nocturne Opus 62/2....a piece that I started working on years ago when studying with Richard Cass. I've decided to arpeggiate a handful of chords in the Nocturne because it seems appropriate to do so. Until recently I wouldn't have considered approaching the piece in this manner - but Louis' arguments have persuaded me to give it a try in this particular instance.

Bert of Mary Poppins? Nice! Do you also sing when you work?

Speaking of singing, Happy Birthday to You!! I just noticed the cake next to your name.

Much thanks to my friend from Arizona.

One thing he realizes, because like myself he has experienced it as a student firsthand, is that when you are on a music school faculty and your name is on your chair studio door, you can be as "thick" as you want to be and everyone has to bow down before you. That is why Carl Friedberg (Clara Schumann, J. Brahms) got fired from Juilliard and Miecyslaw Horszowski (Leschetizky)had to keep his mouth shut under Rudolph Serkin when he was at Curtis for over 40 years.

So, in that this discussion has gone on in another forum "Is the score sacred? Apparently not." since 7/12/13 for over 12 pages, I will show you that this argument is not restricted to the piano. It instead has to do with the entire "larger than life" mythology associated with modern classical music.

There is a man in New York named Joseph Horowitz that Dr. Mark C. is very familiar with who has spent most of his entire adult life attempting to school anyone who would listen that the classical symphony music of the last 80 or so years is nothing remotely close to the way it was originally composed and performed in the 19th century.

In no uncertain terms, I am a rank amateur when it comes to laying it on "thick," as compared to Joe Horowitz. Accordingly, I implore you to read and associate for yourself some additional logic associated with historical performance practice.

Thanks.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Horowitz

http://www.josephhorowitz.com/content.asp?elemento_id=62