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New Heintzman or 30 year old immaculate Baldwin R #212361
05/23/07 03:04 PM
05/23/07 03:04 PM
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 18
canada
doctoth Offline OP
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doctoth  Offline OP
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canada
And so the search goes on........I've looked at so many pianos I've devveloped analysis paralysis......I like the look and sound of the Heintzman 140 upright and the 168 grand ...but I have stumbled across an immaculate 1977 Baldwin R for considerably less money......Any sugestions or comments would help greatly......my taste for some of the nore upper ends have soured when comparing price and function for our needs..

thanks in advance

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Re: New Heintzman or 30 year old immaculate Baldwin R #212362
05/23/07 03:36 PM
05/23/07 03:36 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 19,862
Kansas
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how does the Baldwin play..? (i love Baldwin Grands).


accompanist/organist.. a non-MTNA teacher to a few

love and peace, Õun (apple in Estonian)
Re: New Heintzman or 30 year old immaculate Baldwin R #212363
05/23/07 04:08 PM
05/23/07 04:08 PM
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 143
Illinois
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brummell Offline
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Illinois
Count me as one who loves Baldwin grants, too.

Re: New Heintzman or 30 year old immaculate Baldwin R #212364
05/23/07 04:09 PM
05/23/07 04:09 PM
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 143
Illinois
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Illinois
Oops! In the above, "grants" should be "grands." Sorry.

Re: New Heintzman or 30 year old immaculate Baldwin R #212365
05/23/07 04:11 PM
05/23/07 04:11 PM
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 4,683
San Francisco
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FogVilleLad Offline
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It's always tone, touch, appearance - then price.

With the R, as with any used piano, an evaluation by an experienced tech who has no affiliation with the seller will be the best used piano money that you can spend.

How does the tone of the R compare to that of the Heintzmans - to your ears.

Re: New Heintzman or 30 year old immaculate Baldwin R #212366
05/23/07 05:22 PM
05/23/07 05:22 PM
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 24,380
New York City
pianoloverus Offline
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Quote
Originally posted by FogVilleLad:
It's always tone, touch, appearance - then price.
There is no reason why price has to be the last thing to consider. Each person is different and for some price could easily be the most important thing by far.

Re: New Heintzman or 30 year old immaculate Baldwin R #212367
05/23/07 05:41 PM
05/23/07 05:41 PM
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 18
canada
doctoth Offline OP
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canada
When it comes to sound I realize I like what I like and I don't like others.......what I mean to say is that I can't hear a great difference between good pianos ...a good sound is a good sound...some don't sound good at all....so then I fall back on what's best make...help

Re: New Heintzman or 30 year old immaculate Baldwin R #212368
05/23/07 05:50 PM
05/23/07 05:50 PM
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 3,919
Vancouver Island, BC, Canada
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I am not the world's biggest Baldwin fan - I find them often lacking in musicality. Having said that, remember that a new Heintzman is simply a no-name Chinese piano with a name that conjures up memories of high quality pianos made in Canada. Don't let the Heintzman name influence your decision. Imagine if the name on the piano Hzu-Cho. Would you still feel the same about the piano?

Re: New Heintzman or 30 year old immaculate Baldwin R #212369
05/23/07 06:56 PM
05/23/07 06:56 PM
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 21,898
Victoria, BC
BruceD Offline
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Jurgen Goering brings up an important point; that is that Heintzman was once the name of quite a prestigious all-Canadian-made piano. Some, back in those times, called it the Canadian Steinway with a great deal of justifiable pride.

Heintzman today is a Chinese piano and has, to my knowledge, no track record, yet. In some ways, it is a little disturbing that a name such as Heintzman (and the positive history it represents since 1866) can be stuck on to a newly minted Chinese-made piano. I know nothing of the quality of the new Heintzman; it may be a good piano. I believe that the controlling interests of the company manufacturing the Heintzman are Canadian, but it still seems questionable that a Chinese-made piano bears the name of a long-established - though discontinued since the early 1980s - line of Canadian pianos.

I am sure that someone will tell me that this is happening - or has been happening - with other "discontinued" names. It still think it's a questionable practice to take a name from a well-respected product and stick it on a new one that has little or nothing to do with the original but the name.

Regards,


BruceD
- - - - -
Estonia 190
Re: New Heintzman or 30 year old immaculate Baldwin R #212370
05/23/07 09:21 PM
05/23/07 09:21 PM
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 3,919
Vancouver Island, BC, Canada
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I have a newspaper clipping from around 1990. It is about a court judgment on a case involving switching of piano names. The Heintzman name had recently been sold to a piano dealer who was attaching plaques with Heintzman on them over the name on the fallboards of cheap imported Asian pianos. The judge at the time found that the buyers had been mislead, because of the common association of the Heintzman name with high quality, "Made in Canada" pianos.

Perhaps this judgement wouldn't stand the test of time in a day and age where the (entrepeneur's) bottom line rules supreme, but I still take issue with the practice of leading unaware buyers to think they are buying something they are not.

I feel the same about a lot of other well-known vintage piano brand names that are being bought and used by upstart piano companies without a track record. When I see ads for these pianos extolling their "375 years of heritage and tradition" I don't know whether to laugh or cry.
(Numbers have been changed to protect the insolent)

Re: New Heintzman or 30 year old immaculate Baldwin R #212371
05/23/07 09:24 PM
05/23/07 09:24 PM
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 1,595
Pacific Northwest
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pianobuff Offline
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Pacific Northwest
Why either?

I do like Baldwins. I own a '65 R.

A Baldwin made in 1977 is not the same as a Baldwin made in '65 or '07 for example.

Piano companies are bought off right and left, with different owners and manufacturing processes. I would see if the mid-70's was a good time for Baldwin. Who owned the company then? Where was the piano made?

What is your budget? There may be a piano that could be even a better choice than either the Heintzman or the Baldwin.

Just to confuse you more... sorry frown


Private Piano Teacher,
member MTNA and Piano Basics Foundation
Re: New Heintzman or 30 year old immaculate Baldwin R #212372
05/23/07 10:20 PM
05/23/07 10:20 PM
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 379
Vancouver, B.C.
F
Frank Offline
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Posts: 379
Vancouver, B.C.
Jurgen,
Please see my PM

BruceD,
Please feel to call me personally to get correct facts on Heintzman Pianos. or,
I understand that Keith Allison has serviced your Estonia since your move to Victoria.
As he has Heintzman Pianos on his sales floor and has actually been to our Chinese factory I am sure he would be happy to give you a tour and history.
As so many on this forum also reccomend The Piano Book by Larry Fine, I suggest you contact Larry Fine or check out his new supplement being published this May/June where he corrects much of this mis-information.


Feel free to call me personally if you prefer
604 618-9725


Frank Woodside
www.hzmpiano.com
Re: New Heintzman or 30 year old immaculate Baldwin R #212373
05/23/07 11:01 PM
05/23/07 11:01 PM
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 21,898
Victoria, BC
BruceD Offline
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Victoria, BC
Frank :

Thank you for the invitation to call you.

Since you are a representative for Heintzman pianos, why not put the record straight here by correcting some of the mis-information I stated in my post? I certainly don't mind being taken to task for mis-information that I may have voiced in expressing my opinion. It seems that you would do us all a service by putting the correct facts forward.

I do keep up to date with the Larry Fine supplements as they come out, so I will look forward to his corrections.

Regards,


BruceD
- - - - -
Estonia 190
Re: New Heintzman or 30 year old immaculate Baldwin R #212374
05/23/07 11:31 PM
05/23/07 11:31 PM
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 92
West Vancouver
Helen&Ken Offline
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Posts: 92
West Vancouver
Doctoth,

Look at more pianos smile . Seriously, play both again, and pick the one you like regardless of price. If you picked the Baldwin, have a tech check it out for any problems and then buy it. If the Heintzman, then you have to decide if the improvement and having a "new" piano is worth the extra money.

We played a few Heintzman's (168 & 203 grands at Loewen's in Vancoouver) in our own search. They seemed to be well built with quality components such as Renner action/hammers and Bolduc sound board. Also, the dealer at no time stated they were Canadian made. They were very honest about the Chinese origin and mentioned the name was purchased. We thought they were good value for the money and definitely cheaper than a comparable sized Yamaha or Kawai. Unfortunately, they didn't have the characteristics we were searching for.

K

Re: New Heintzman or 30 year old immaculate Baldwin R #212375
05/24/07 12:12 AM
05/24/07 12:12 AM
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 379
Vancouver, B.C.
F
Frank Offline
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Frank  Offline
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Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 379
Vancouver, B.C.
BruceD,
As you state you have not seen nor played a Heintzman I thought it a good idea for you to see and hear for yourself, hence my recomendation you see Allison Pianos in Vctoria.
The fact that Mr. Allison has also been to the factory is so you do not hear from the distributor but an impartial P.T.G. tech (or as impartial as he can be as he chose to represent the line.
As for Heritage, when Heintzman was sold and closed in Canada, the new owners moved the equipment along the drawings/scales etc were moved to China and a new factory built there.
A private, Canadian owned factory that is called Heintzman Piano Co. Ltd and produces only Heintzman brand pianos.

As we bought and moved Heintzman, our factory is called Heintzman, we only build our factory name Heintzman Pianos to Heintzman designs and people, can we not call our pianos Heintzman?
Heintzman Brand pianos even in China have never been built by any other factory other than The Heintzman Factory.
We still employ Mr. James Moffat from the Hanover factory in Canada to oversee production and have maintained Canadian content including having our grand and soundboards still made in Canada (Andre Boduc in Quebec) to the highest standards.
Actually, by demand we will be building even our pro upright soundboards in Canada introducing this summer.

I do agree with you it is sad when some names that do not have factories or any ties to originals slap a name on for recogntion or marketing.
In fact the factory that built ABC piano last year may not be the same factory that builds them this year.

That is not the case with Heintzman.
Our Factory name is Heintzman, our designs are Heintzman, our brand is Heintzman and only Heintzman.
As we own the Heintzman factory and all proprietory equpment from Canada and in essence relocated our assembly to China under Canadian control and management, and have built in China since the late 80's when Heintzman closed in Canada and moved to China I do not feel we are a Newly minted Chinese made piano.
No more than any company that has moved production to another country.
The "Chinese made Heintzmans" are in University Music Schools, Conservatories, and represented by some of the most respected dealers in Canada that care more about truth and integrity.
There is a reason there were law suits when the name was used by people slapping them on inferior product.
But I invite you to try for yourself.
I only answer as you asked as I am not here to Blow our horn but sometimes, especially in the piano business that is fuelled by opinion and heresay I agree, I should speak up.
I hope this answers your questions, if not - do please call me personally.
If prefer you can PM me your email and I wil send you Larry Fines report and some company documentation to clear up any confusion.

Sincerely,


Frank Woodside
www.hzmpiano.com
Re: New Heintzman or 30 year old immaculate Baldwin R #212376
05/24/07 12:24 AM
05/24/07 12:24 AM
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 21,898
Victoria, BC
BruceD Offline
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Victoria, BC
Frank:

Thank you.


BruceD
- - - - -
Estonia 190
Re: New Heintzman or 30 year old immaculate Baldwin R #212377
05/24/07 12:40 AM
05/24/07 12:40 AM
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 7,051
K
kenny Offline
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Frank, the home page for Heintzman website you link to mentions Canada or Canadian five times.

It does not mention China once.

Since the pianos are made in China I think this is misleading to the majority of customers who dig no deeper.

At the bottom of the homepage there is even a quote attributed to, "James Moffat, Plant MGR of Heintzman Piano Co., Toronto, Canada"
That sure sounds like the plant is in Canada.

After reading your home page they will really really really think that Heintzman pianos are made in Canada.
Under Techical info they will learn parts come from Germany, America and Canada. - Still not a peep about China.

"Made in China" is nothing to be ashamed of.
You should proudly toot the Chinese horn at least as many times as you toot the Canadian, German and American horns on your home page.

Re: New Heintzman or 30 year old immaculate Baldwin R #212378
05/24/07 12:55 AM
05/24/07 12:55 AM
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 379
Vancouver, B.C.
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Frank Offline
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Kenny,
It does say that the original drawings, scale designs etc are being utilized.
If you go to "History and Profile" which I do think anyone looking for info will do, you will not only find the Canadian history but all the info from our move to China including pics of the factory and assembly.
As a matter of fact you can take a tour of the factory and see all technical info.
You will also find Mr. Moffat from Canada there and Andre Bolduc under "Whats New"
I do not believe we are misleading anyone one iota.
In fact, you will find quite a pride of our manufacturing there.
Please look as any consumer would go through a website.
They way you put it they would not even look under "Products" to see what we have.
Is that the way people look at websites?
If you do, I suggest what ever product you are researching, you actually do research.
Then you can make an informed decision.


Frank Woodside
www.hzmpiano.com
Re: New Heintzman or 30 year old immaculate Baldwin R #212379
05/24/07 10:06 AM
05/24/07 10:06 AM
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 21,898
Victoria, BC
BruceD Offline
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Victoria, BC
I am not sure why I'm not just ignorning this thread, as it seems to be getting somewhat complex, but I do have to point out one oversight that kenny missed, but then also point out that I agree with him on other points.

Kenny did miss the fact that on the website www.hzmpiano.com under "History and Profile" the link "Company Profile" clearly states, with pictures, that the Heintzman factory was opened in Beijing in 1989. Then, another link to "Factory Tour" outlines the assembly process, including pictures of Asian workers, but never once mentions that the factory is in China except for this very bizarre comment : "(Need picture from China of the auto striking machine) Close and Long shot"

If one goes to "Heintzman History" linked under "History and Profile," one reads a history of the company, quoted from The Canadian Encyclopedia © 2005 Historical Foundation of Canada, up to 1980, with no mention of the subsequent buy-out of Heintzman, no mention of its
current production line, and no mention that the factory is now in China. Surely most readers seeing a copyright date of 2005 on this article, and trying to make "an informed decision" will wonder why the history stops there. Might they not wonder if there is no connection between the current Heintzman pianos and Heintzman Limited?

Might they not assume Canadian manufacture after reading :

...and in 1978 a merger of Heintzman and Sherlock-Manning under William's presidency was announced, the name Heintzman Limited was adopted, and headquarters were moved to Hanover, Ont.

Might not "researchers" be somewhat confused after seeing in the last photograph from the Beijing factory tour a picture of the soundboard with the words "Hanover, Canada" clearly printed? That picture, by the way, has the bizarre caption The Legend is borned.

Under the link "Technical Information" serial numbers of Heintzman Pianos are given from 1867 to 1980, and then from 2001 to 2007. I would think that the customer doing his research would want to know why, if the factory was established in Beijing in 1989, there are no serial numbers for the 12 years between 1989 and 2001.

No one can criticize Heintzman for hiding the fact that their pianos are now made in China; it is in view on the website. It is disconcerting, however, to see the Chinese reference rarely, while seeing references to Canadian locations and the Canadian history of Heintzman, and to feel that the China reference is buried fairly deep into the various links on the website.

As kenny infers and as others have pointed out, some Chinese pianos are getting good reviews, these days; one doesn't have to go beyond Piano World to read some glowing testimonials to Chinese piano manufacture. Perhaps Heintzman needs to update the various links on their website to reflect the pride that they feel for their Chinese production.

If, as Mr. Woodside says, the consumer does his research, s/he will find that Heintzman Pianos are made in Beijing. However, in doing this research the results will raise as many questions as it will provide answers. I wonder if some consumers will wonder why, with reference to the illustrious Canadian history of the Heintzman name, the product is now made in China. Will they not also wonder why the company is not proudly commenting on the modern manufacturing process in their Beijing factory and why that major shift in their production venue is not a part of the company's history?

The uninformed consumer may ask : Is a product of Canadian design, with one of the best German made pin blocks made in China, a Canadian product?

On a final, personal note : I am not in the piano business, so I do wonder how Mr. Woodside knows who has been servicing my piano and why he chooses to post that information on this forum.

Regards,


BruceD
- - - - -
Estonia 190
Re: New Heintzman or 30 year old immaculate Baldwin R #212380
05/24/07 10:36 PM
05/24/07 10:36 PM
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 663
Canada
SCCDoug Offline
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To be blunt - the obsession with Chinese manufacturing on this forum is at times ridiculous, and this is a case in point. No one more than Frank, and no company more than Heintzman, has been more open about their history and where they are currently being manufactured. For this nit-picking to be happening speaks more about increasingly tiresome, false generalizations than it does about Heintzman.

Everything I have heard suggests that they are good quality pianos at a decent price, and they would be on my list of pianos to check out. On the face of it I would be more inclined to go for a new Heintzman than a 1970's Baldwin.

It is no wonder that manufacturing representatives get tired of this place.


Doug

"Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind." - Dr. Seuss
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