Originally Posted by wr
Originally Posted by stores
Originally Posted by wr
Originally Posted by stores
Originally Posted by wr
Originally Posted by stores
B-S (as we loved calling him, though not to his face ha!) does more than imply a 4 note trill, Mark. Every ornament on his list makes use of 4 notes.

You are wrong. The third item on his list, the "short trill" is a three-note trill. The two terms in parenthesis for that item, Pralltriller and Schneller, are both defined as an inverted mordent in Grove. And the inverted mordent is just three notes.

It is true that at one time, the term Pralltriller was a four note trill starting on the upper auxiliary, but that is not how he used it in the list, since he gives it as a synonym for Scheller, which never was a four-note trill.

Of course, you may want to argue that Grove is wrong, too, but some cites at least as solid as Grove would be in order if you do.

Actually, no, I'm not wrong, but I do see now that BS believes the ornament in question could be a pralltriller or schneller. I disagree and here is why. Baroque ornamentation lived into the 19th century. In music written before the nineteenth century, the mordent (written as a shake sign crossed by a vertical line) is a sequence of three notes. It is known as the "lower mordent" distinguishing it from the nineteenth century ornament know as the schneller or upper/inverted mordent.
The pralltriller (half or short trill) is a series of four notes, the first of which is tied to the preceding note, and may occur only after a descending second. The note that is ornamented with the trill must be preceded by the note one diatonic step higher.
Clearly, the ornament in question can be neither.

If the first note is tied to a previous one, it isn't sounded again, and as Grove says, it may be omitted entirely. And if it is omitted, that would appear to leave the ornament as having three notes.

And how, exactly, would you pull that off in this case?

I wouldn't, because the old version of the Pralltriller would the wrong ornament for this case, seeing that there's no note to tie across, or to omit. I'm not sure which other version of a trill I'd choose, because it would depend on tempo and my level of dexterity, and since I haven't tried the passage out on the piano, I don't know what would work best.

At any rate, I was talking about the list of possible Mozart trills given by Badura-Skoda, and not about the question of the OP. The footnote to the third item on the list clearly explains that he is not talking about the old-style four-note Pralltriller that begins on a tied upper note, which he says doesn't occur in Mozart. And if he isn't talking about that, the only option left that he could possibly be talking about is the inverted mordent, a three-note ornament, which just happens to be the modern German usage of Pralltriller.

I could see that, since he is discussing Mozart's trill signs, one might jump to the erroneous conclusion that when he gives Pralltriller along with Schneller as a parenthetical explanation of what he means by a "short trill", he could mean the old usage. But everything points to his using it in the modern sense an inverted mordent that starts on the primary note, and the footnote tries to make sure (although somewhat obliquely) that is what is understood.

You make some good points, wr, I will give you that. BS, should not have used the term Pralltriller at all, if his intent was an inverted mordent, since the term Pralltriller (and it's form) has long been non-existant. I still stand by my previous statement and completely disagree with his usage of Pralltriller and Schneller, since it can be neither of these and Mozart would not have used the "tr" sign to signify an inverted mordent. There is ample time to play a four note trill, which is one of the rules of thumb for ornaments such as this, unless otherwise specified. I feel quite certain that BS means something different with his "short trill" other than prall/schneller and trust me, he his extremely clear with what he wants one on one.

"And if we look at the works of J.S. Bach — a benevolent god to which all musicians should offer a prayer to defend themselves against mediocrity... -Debussy

"It's ok if you disagree with me. I can't force you to be right."

♪ ≠ $