Piano World Home Page Forums Our Most Popular Forums Digital Pianos - Electronic Pianos - Synths & Keyboards On the 30th anniversary of MIDI manufacturers drop the ball

Then maybe every midi device (or at least the more substantial ones such as keyboards) could be equipped with two usb sockets (one for each type) and could be capable of behaving as client or server....or slave/ master or what ever it is.

If you plug into the type one socket, it'll be master, if you plug into type two, it'll be a slave. Then they can get on with the peer-to-peer type relationship that they would have done through ordinary midi DINs.

To Michael H and to Plinky88: If you were able to connect two keyboards so that they could "talk" to each other, what would they "say"? What would be the purpose?

LMAO - I don't think they would talk about the weather... MIDI stuff.. note values, program changes, controller data.

It would say, for example, 'c4, velocity 87, msb-04 lsb-54 program 02'......in other words, it would 'say' the same kind of thing that midi has always dealt with.

Why have two keyboards "talk" through a USB connection? This scenario:

. . . I want to play _two_ P105's (with their various tones) from the keyboard of one of them.

I think the only way to do that is to run each of their USB connections into a computer. And then to use MIDI-Ox (or something like that) to "connect" the "virtual MIDI ports" that the USB drivers implement.

I, too, am old enough to remember "before MIDI", and mourn its passing.

. Charles

The pianos already talk in MIDI. But the question is: What would you accomplish?

Pianos (and other MIDI instruments) send MIDI code to a computer (or other dedicated device) so that the data can be:
- Played as an instrument (with much better quality than the native keyboard sounds)
- Recorded
- Mixed with other tracks to produce a performance
- etc.
So the piano is an OUTPUT device.

Yes, pianos can accept midi INPUT, and play the sounds just as though you were playing manually. But even that is rather pointless. The tones on most pianos are poor compared to what a computer can produce. Better to feed the keyboard MIDI output to the computer/controller.

If you wish to play two P105 keyboards from a single keyboard, many pianos can already do that ... using just one keyboard. I don't know what the P105 can do, but my piano allows me to select two voices simultaneously. I don't need two pianos to accomplish that.

I have 2 USB keyboards - I want to layer a sound on one with a sound on the other and only play one keyboard to do it. No computer. Possible with just an external USB hub or would an interface/computer be required?

You'd need a computer to do that.

On the USB bus, a piano is a slave. Slaves communicate only with a master ... such as a computer.

Two slaves cannot communicate with each other. A hub makes no difference ... a slave is a slave, regardless.

There we go... thanks. The reason I ask is with more and more USB only keyboards coming in this will become a very common question. It may not make sense to some, but connecting one keyboard to another without using a computer is something that is done very often in a live setting - and even in some home studios. Thanks again, Mac.

Well... to get back to the original point of this thread, 'standard' DIN MIDI has been communicating back and forth between devices, whether instruments or computers for 30 years now. No big deal to do it, an extremely easy to implement interface, tried and true.

It just seems to make sense to keep standard MIDI readily available. Nothing is ready to take it's place yet, but of course if someone is never going to need full MIDI functionality and compatibility USB will do nicely.

For anyone interested, this box plus a USB should make everything talk nice to each other - USB and/or old school MIDI.

http://www.iconnectivity.com/iConnectMIDI4plus

Yes, but my question was: Why should one of the keyboards not be a computer? You say that slaves will only talk to a master. Well then, call keyboard 'a' 'computer'. Then keyboard 'b', module 'c' would agree to talk to it and, of course, vice versa.

Keyboards aren't programmed that way - you need a box like the MidiConnect4 or a computer to act as a host.

Yes, but what I was trying to get at was that the DP could be programmed that way.....or maybe they couldn't.....just a thought.

Isn't this is more to do with identity than complexity?

I gotcha.. sure they can be made that way. Would be great to just be able to plug and play in that manner... but I'm not holding my breath!

They may reconsider (see article quoted below)... considering that USB is up to USB 3.5 now, and among the lower-numbered USB standards there are so many various flavors of 'fast' and 'slow,' 'to-host/ to-device,' no power/some power/more power/ or set-the-studio-on-fire power. (I could not help but think of poor Michael Jackson with his hair set on fire in the Pepsi commercial.) It is not a simple matter to keep up--- unless you just ignore it, which I think they're pretty much counting on--- as I learned in my 'pleasure reading' of even the very streamlined articles in WIKI on the USBs (and FireWire, and Thunderbolt/ Light Peak, and Ethernet, and Power over Ethernet.) And of course, oldie-but-goodie, but forgotten, Wireless MIDI.

Seriously, MIDI Over WiFi has a lot to offer, since most MIDI devices would not care as much about getting power in a single wire, as they would about a new MIDI standard that is faster and gets around the Old MIDI's limitations. Anyway, even in the old 5-pin DIN connectors two pins are unused; there must be some unused data- or power-carrying capability there, besides which Ethernet is already invented, so why reinvent it. And why hunch over your computer, tethered to a 3-foot cable--- that is how it's going to be for a lot of musicians.

"...The future of MIDI..."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MIDI#USB

"A new version of MIDI tentatively called "HD Protocol" or "High-Definition Protocol" has been under discussion since 2005, when it was announced as "HD-MIDI".[27] This new standard offers full backward compatibility with MIDI 1.0 and is intended to support higher-speed transports, allow plug-and-play device discovery and enumeration, and provide greater data range and resolution. The numbers of channels and controllers are to be increased, new kinds of events are to be added, and messages are to be simplified. Entirely new kinds of events will be supported, such as a Note Update message and Direct Pitch in the Note message which are aimed at guitar controllers.[119][120] Proposed physical layer transports include Ethernet-based protocols such as RTP MIDI and Audio Video Bridging.[109] The HD Protocol and a User Datagram Protocol (UDP)-based transport are under review by MMA's High-Definition Protocol Working Group (HDWG), which includes representatives from all sizes and types of companies.[120] Prototype devices based on the draft standard were shown privately at Winter NAMM 2013 using wired and wireless connections.[119] It is currently not known if and when the new protocol will be picked up by the industry..."

Also worth mentioning:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USB_2.0#USB_2.0

"...MIDI"

"Digital musical instruments are another example where USB is competitive in low-cost devices. However Power over Ethernet and the MIDI plug standard have an advantage in high-end devices that may have long cables. USB can cause ground loop problems between equipment, because it connects ground references on both transceivers. By contrast, the MIDI plug standard and Ethernet have built-in isolation to 500V or more."

But I have to put in my favorite, as long as we're speaking of disinhibition:

"...Some non-standard USB devices use the 5 V power supply without participating in a proper USB network, which negotiates power draw with the host interface. These are usually called USB decorations[citation needed]. Examples include USB-powered keyboard lights, fans, mug coolers and heaters, battery chargers, miniature vacuum cleaners, and even miniature lava lamps. In most cases, these items contain no digital circuitry, and thus are not standard compliant USB devices. This may cause problems with some computers, such as drawing too much current and damaging circuitry..."

I have been playing with this a little... I have Alchemy on my iPhone and play it wirelessly with a USB keyboard using a handy free program called rptMIDI.

http://www.tobias-erichsen.de/software/rtpmidi.html

Very interesting stuff, Jeff!

As far as the 'decorations' I hate to think that a cooling pad with fans might do more harm than good, but I guess it's possible..

But I've GOT to have my coffee mug warmer

And I REFUSE to give up my USB Whack-a-Mole!

Awesome!