Welcome to the Piano World Piano Forums
Over 2.5 million posts about pianos, digital pianos, and all types of keyboard instruments
Join the World's Largest Community of Piano Lovers (it's free)
It's Fun to Play the Piano ... Please Pass It On!


SEARCH
Piano Forums & Piano World
(ad)
Modern Piano Moving
Modern Piano Moving
(ad)
Virtual Sheet Music
Download Sheet Music Instantly
Virtual Sheet Music - Classical Sheet Music Downloads
Sheet Music...
(125ad)
Piano Life Saver - Dampp Chaser
Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver
(ad)
Piano Buyer Guide
Piano Buyer Spring 2017
(ad)
Lindeblad Piano
Lindeblad Piano Restorations and sales
Who's Online Now
80 registered members (Beakybird, Almaviva, 7uturu, Albert Brighten, 21 invisible), 1,858 guests, and 16 spiders.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
(ad)
Estonia Pianos
Estonia Pianos
Quick Links to Useful Piano & Music Resources
Our Classified Ads
Find Piano Professionals-

*Piano Dealers - Piano Stores
*Piano Tuners
*Piano Teachers
*Piano Movers
*Piano Restorations
*Piano Manufacturers

Quick Links:
*Advertise On Piano World
*Free Piano Newsletter
*Online Piano Recitals
*Piano Recitals Index
*Piano & Music Accessories
*Live Piano Venues
*Music School Listings
* Buying a Piano
*Buying A Acoustic Piano
*Buying a Digital Piano
*Pianos for Sale
*Sell Your Piano
*How Old is My Piano?
*Directory/Site Map
*Virtual Piano
*Music Word Search
*Piano Videos
*Virtual Piano Chords & Scales
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
#2100634 - 06/10/13 09:23 PM The moment before a breakthrough  
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 233
bolt Offline
Full Member
bolt  Offline
Full Member

Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 233
Finding my last two breakthroughs came after days of extreme frustration where I felt I wasn't getting any where.

Anyone else find this to be the case?

Think I should relish becoming frustrated from now on.


"There is more to this piano playing malarkey than meets the eye" - adultpianist
(ad)
Piano & Music Accessories
piano accessories music gifts tuning and moving equipment
#2100641 - 06/10/13 09:42 PM Re: The moment before a breakthrough [Re: bolt]  
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 3,081
earlofmar Online content
3000 Post Club Member
earlofmar  Online Content
3000 Post Club Member

Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 3,081
Australia
Definitely found this to be true bolt. Occasionally I have sunk into despair when things aren't going well. I have came back the next day to find everything has fallen into place. What sweet joy that is, and has helped me cope better when I am having those dark thoughts.


Problems with piano are 90% psychological, the other 10% is in your head.

13x[Linked Image]
[Linked Image]
#2100763 - 06/11/13 03:00 AM Re: The moment before a breakthrough [Re: bolt]  
Joined: May 2012
Posts: 1,393
Bobpickle Offline

Gold Supporter until July 10  2014
Bobpickle  Offline

Gold Supporter until July 10  2014


Joined: May 2012
Posts: 1,393
Cameron Park, California
Making effective use of post practice improvement (PPI) is something that could save most all of us from this kind of frustration.

http://www.pianofundamentals.com/book/en/1.II.15

http://www.jeff-brent.com/Lessons/TheSubconsciousAndMaximizingPracticeTime.html


"[The trick to life isn't] just about living forever. The trick is still living with yourself forever."
#2100811 - 06/11/13 06:09 AM Re: The moment before a breakthrough [Re: bolt]  
Joined: Dec 2012
Posts: 178
floydthebarber71 Offline
Full Member
floydthebarber71  Offline
Full Member

Joined: Dec 2012
Posts: 178
South Africa
I have found this with anything that requires repetitive practice. Take some time off, it somehow sinks in and you have better control when you return. The trick is to realise the correct moment to take a break, and not continue plodding along, imo.


Zaahir

Self-taught renegade - Kawai CL-36
(ad ) MusicNotes.com
sheet music search
#2100832 - 06/11/13 08:35 AM Re: The moment before a breakthrough [Re: bolt]  
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 1,108
WiseBuff Offline
1000 Post Club Member
WiseBuff  Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 1,108
Brighton Colorado
Absolutely true for me too. When I'm learning a new piece at first it feels comfortable and relatively easy to learn. Then as I dig into the details of getting the rhythm, notes and emphasis just right, my body just does it wrong. I reach a point where it feels not worth the effort and then a day off or two and the piece starts to flow. My brain has to take control or the emotional strength to keep going is not there. At a gathering the other day the adults were discussing how even play becomes work sometimes so you have to reframe your thinking that the repetition that feels like work is still part of play. LOL. I've listened to golfers, bowlers, softball players, even video gamers express the same point of frustration. Small wonder so many give up. Not us though


[Linked Image]
[Linked Image]
Wise as in learner
Buff as in Colorado Buffalo
#2100835 - 06/11/13 08:46 AM Re: The moment before a breakthrough [Re: bolt]  
Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 2,496
Andy Platt Offline
2000 Post Club Member
Andy Platt  Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 2,496
Virginia, USA
I don't think I've really had any. It's just slow progress towards the goal. Trills for instance.

Piece #1: Can't do them at all, complete rubbish.
Piece #2: Ugh
Piece #3: Getting a little closer but need a lot of work
Piece #10: Ah, that sounds more like it!


  • Debussy - Le Petit Nègre, L. 114
  • Haydn - Sonata in Gm, Hob. XVI/44

Kawai K3
[Linked Image][Linked Image][Linked Image]
#2100910 - 06/11/13 12:40 PM Re: The moment before a breakthrough [Re: bolt]  
Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 6,262
peterws Offline
6000 Post Club Member
peterws  Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 6,262
Northern England.
I used to get my head down and bash on towards the witching hour. And then I got no sleep . . .There is a place for dogged determination. It`s amongst younger people than me!


"I am not a man. I am a free number"

"[Linked Image]"
#2101039 - 06/11/13 04:58 PM Re: The moment before a breakthrough [Re: bolt]  
Joined: May 2010
Posts: 806
AimeeO Offline

Silver Supporter until Jan 04 2013
AimeeO  Offline

Silver Supporter until Jan 04 2013


Joined: May 2010
Posts: 806
New Orleans
I used to get frustrated when I ran into those plateaus, but now I embrace them, 'cause something awesome is about to happen.

#2101824 - 06/13/13 04:49 AM Re: The moment before a breakthrough [Re: AimeeO]  
Joined: Aug 2012
Posts: 2,984
outo Offline
2000 Post Club Member
outo  Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Joined: Aug 2012
Posts: 2,984
Finland
It seems for me frustration and even anger work for my benefit. When things go smoothly I tend to stagnate, but when I hit a real problem I curse, pull my sleeves and work though it no matter what. The best results tend to come when I sit on my piano for a couple of hours after my lesson has ended in a disaster smile

This helps to solve the problem, but I agree that taking time off from actual practicing (and sleep) is what makes it stick in longer term.

#2101935 - 06/13/13 11:46 AM Re: The moment before a breakthrough [Re: bolt]  
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 15,861
Morodiene Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Morodiene  Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 15,861
Boynton Beach, FL
I, too, have to get to that point of frustration and even anger before I get to the next level on a piece. Once I get mad at myself over it, then my determination really kicks in and I get it figured out somehow.


private piano/voice teacher FT

[Linked Image][Linked Image][Linked Image]
[Linked Image]
#2119723 - 07/18/13 04:13 PM Re: The moment before a breakthrough [Re: Morodiene]  
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 233
bolt Offline
Full Member
bolt  Offline
Full Member

Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 233
Sorry I didn't reply back, have been away from this forum for a while.

Some of you got exactly what I meant. Despair, anger frustration, feeling like giving up, quitting piano, anger at the teacher even for making you do whatever it is you're failing so badly at! And then two days later everything is great and you are playing better than ever.

And AimeeO, I think you are exactly right, it seems we should embrace this feeling, look forward to it even, because it means great things are about to happen.

Anyway, this all just happened to me all over again and I didn't even take my own advice until it was all over with.


"There is more to this piano playing malarkey than meets the eye" - adultpianist
#2120188 - 07/19/13 02:41 PM Re: The moment before a breakthrough [Re: bolt]  
Joined: Jun 2012
Posts: 211
255 Offline
Full Member
255  Offline
Full Member

Joined: Jun 2012
Posts: 211
Play slower.
Stay focused. When you're not, stop for a while then try again.

#2120203 - 07/19/13 03:05 PM Re: The moment before a breakthrough [Re: bolt]  
Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 1,358
Kymber Offline
1000 Post Club Member
Kymber  Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 1,358
MA
Yes, that has happened to me in music, art, and film making.
I think the frustration is as we are moving out of our comfort zone. The breakthrough is when we moved out of the comfort zone and have reached a new level. That's not to say all breakthroughs are preceded by frustration though.


“The doubters said, "Man cannot fly," The doers said, "Maybe, but we'll try,"
And finally soared in the morning glow while non-believers watched from below.”
― Bruce Lee
#2120238 - 07/19/13 04:47 PM Re: The moment before a breakthrough [Re: bolt]  
Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 2,199
rnaple Offline

Silver Supporter until April 24 2014
rnaple  Offline

Silver Supporter until April 24 2014


Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 2,199
Rocky Mountains
I always make progress when I've been broken. When all is lost. There is no hope. I'm beat. That is when the race begins.



BTW: Is it ok to make hamburger helper with a pound and a half of hamburger? It was on special. smile


Ron
Your brain is a sponge. Keep it wet. Mary Gae George
The focus of your personal practice is discipline. Not numbers. Scott Sonnon
[Linked Image][Linked Image]
#2120268 - 07/19/13 05:52 PM Re: The moment before a breakthrough [Re: bolt]  
Joined: May 2012
Posts: 1,393
Bobpickle Offline

Gold Supporter until July 10  2014
Bobpickle  Offline

Gold Supporter until July 10  2014


Joined: May 2012
Posts: 1,393
Cameron Park, California
Originally Posted by bolt
Sorry I didn't reply back, have been away from this forum for a while.

Some of you got exactly what I meant. Despair, anger frustration, feeling like giving up, quitting piano, anger at the teacher even for making you do whatever it is you're failing so badly at! And then two days later everything is great and you are playing better than ever.


Don't just let these experiences come and go. Use them to learn from. Think back at what you're getting frustrated over, how you work to break it down into a simpler problem (assuming you do), and what eventually succeeds in getting you up and over the hump. Every breakthrough happens for a very specific reason - they're most certainly not random (though they very much appear to often be). Learn to use this "feedback cycle" for your own benefit. As you grow more educated, experienced, and aware, you'll become more efficient in your learning and your progress, and eventually the possibility of encountering such frustration again will completely vanish.


"[The trick to life isn't] just about living forever. The trick is still living with yourself forever."
#2120360 - 07/19/13 09:55 PM Re: The moment before a breakthrough [Re: bolt]  
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 233
bolt Offline
Full Member
bolt  Offline
Full Member

Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 233
Thanks for all the replies everyone. I found them all very interesting.


"There is more to this piano playing malarkey than meets the eye" - adultpianist
#2120396 - 07/20/13 01:18 AM Re: The moment before a breakthrough [Re: bolt]  
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 1,275
tangleweeds Offline

Silver Supporter until Jan 11 2012
tangleweeds  Offline

Silver Supporter until Jan 11 2012


Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 1,275
Portland, OR
I wonder if the sense of frustration and being lost at sea that comes before a breakthrough may be a symptom of having outgrown a mental structure that has brought one thus far, but is insufficient to carry one along any farther.

So maybe the feeling of being lost and hopeless is really *is* an experience of being lost without a map, as your brain lets go of connections within itself, releasing one's dependence on the ideas and habits that have been holding one back from further growth.

And the breakthrough comes when this detachment from old mental habits permits the mind to integrate new and better skills or understandings.



Please step aside. You're standing in your own way.

intermittent piano blog
#2120530 - 07/20/13 12:13 PM Re: The moment before a breakthrough [Re: bolt]  
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 4,464
Mark... Offline
4000 Post Club Member
Mark...  Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 4,464
Jersey Shore
Ironically a breakthrough. is just the brain finishing up on a wiring project after hard work and some decent sleep...

#2120546 - 07/20/13 01:10 PM Re: The moment before a breakthrough [Re: bolt]  
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 6,368
jotur Offline
6000 Post Club Member
jotur  Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 6,368
Santa Fe, NM
+1s to rnaple, tangleweeds and Mark... That's the way it works for me, too, and these were well-said.

Cathy


Cathy
[Linked Image][Linked Image][Linked Image]
Practice like you are the worst; play like you are the best - anonymous

Moderated by  BB Player, casinitaly 

Piano Acc. & Gift Items in
Piano World's Online Store
In PianoSupplies.com ,(a division of Piano World) our online store for piano and music gifts and accessories, party goods, tuning equipment, piano moving equipment, benches, lamps Caster Cups and more.


Free Shipping on Jansen Artist Piano Benches
(ad)
Pearl River
Pearl River Pianos
ad
Pierce Piano Atlas


(ad)
Pianoteq
Grotrian Concert
Royal
for Pianoteq out now
What's Hot!!
Why Do You Play The Piano?
-------------------
Posting Pictures on the Forums
-------------------
Forums RULES & HELP
-------------------
ADVERTISE on Piano World
-------------------
Piano Classified Ads
New Topics - Multiple Forums
Curious, how often do you play on an acoustic?
by Gombessa. 06/23/17 09:25 PM
How about those spinets?
by RonTuner. 06/23/17 06:46 PM
Info re 60s era Grotrian
by Duke of Dunning. 06/23/17 06:24 PM
Student progress using acoustic or digital piano
by Duke of Dunning. 06/23/17 05:17 PM
Finally a potential solution
by Terry Michael. 06/23/17 04:27 PM
(ad)
Sheet Music Plus
Sheet Music Plus Featured Sale
(ad)
Accu-Tuner
Sanderson Accu-Tuner
Forum Statistics
Forums44
Topics180,416
Posts2,638,541
Members88,169
Most Online15,252
Mar 21st, 2010
Check It Out!
There's a lot more to Piano World than just the forums.
Check It Out!
Visit our online store for gifts for music lovers


 
Help keep the forums up and running with a donation, any amount is appreciated!
Or by becoming a Subscribing member! Thank-you.
Donate   Subscribe
 
Our Piano Related Classified Ads
| Dealers | Tuners | Lessons | Movers | Restorations | Pianos For Sale | Sell Your Piano |

Advertise on Piano World
| Subscribe | Piano World | PianoSupplies.com | Advertise on Piano World |
| |Contact | Privacy | Legal | About Us | Site Map | Free Newsletter |


copyright 1997 - 2017 Piano World ® all rights reserved
No part of this site may be reproduced without prior written permission
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.6.0