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Hi all,

I am building a software piano setup at home and am deciding between the RD700NX and the VPC1 as a controller. The former has the added value of an internal tone generator (so I am leaning a bit towards that one if I ever want to play live) while the latter ships with optimized velocity curves for the common soft pianos like Ivory.

So, how important are those preset curves? I know exactly what they mean, but judging from the VPC1 screenshots it seems like they are almost linear anyway for most pianos and barely noticeable. If this is not the case, are there openly available curves for other pianos like the RD700NX?

Of course, any advice about RD700NX vs VPC1 is highly appreciated as well. The VPC1 doesn't seem to be available here, so I have to trust the forums.

As a controller for a software setup I would definitely prefer the VPC1. The adjustable curves are a real asset (depending on whether or not you have the same functionality in your software, of course). Even small changes in the curves do have a significant effect on playability.
The VPC1's action is great and I definitely prefer it to that of the Roland you mention (but others might disagree).

My host software (FL Studio) does have the same functionality if I want to make my own curves, but I'm just purely asking about the quality and necessity of the presets the VPC1 ships with. It seems like they had piano players design "ideal" curves for a few of the common soft pianos and I don't know if I would be able to come up with the same.

Unfortunately I haven't seen a VPC1 in the San Francisco area, but others have noted that the action is a little heavier than the average grand piano? I did try the RD700NX and it seemed solid. This makes me hesitate to blindly buy a VPC1, but then again I might regret it later on... I know it's hard to describe, but is there anything you can capture in words that makes you pick the VPC1 over the Roland?

Thanks for your answer!

My RD-700NX has 5 major touch settings, with +9/-10 fine grain between (100 curves total). I think you'd be more interested in the difference between how the actions feel. PHAIII is quick, but somewhat bottoms out. I too am curious about VPC1, but I don't want to deal with software. Since you're building a software setup, yeah the VPC1 seems mighty interesting!!

You really have to sit down at the actions and play them. If you are serious I'd say that's a must.

It's apples and pears.

Do you want a stage controller that is still (somewhat) portable, or do you want the best keys without ANY controls or sounds at all and in a design that can hardly be described as portable (just sort of transportable).

The VPC is the best controller for acoustic piano libraries , but the RD is really more versatile as an allround board if you need more.

So what's the definite list of things the controller should be able to fulfill for you ?! Once you know that, the choice should be easy to make, regardless of factory provided velocity curves or not.

I often practice scales and arppegios, or tiny parts of a piece I am working at, things which I need to repeat often to get them memorized in muscles and brain. Every morning before leaving the flat, just 3 minutes, just enough to get the brain and muscles triggered to continue optimizing for the task.
Would I like to boot all my equipment for this? Would there even be enough time to get it booted, up and running in my 3 minutes?

So, if you think that you also could once run into such situation, then decision is done, or? With an instrument with sound generator, you press the power button, wait 5 seconds, and spontanously practice until the bus comes. Quickly push the off button and run out to catch the bus, without having to worry about anything.

Ah, does the VPC1 still rely on Kawai's custom Windows-only software for configuring the thing? Or have they published the required system exclusive message documentation yet?

Haha. Hope springs eternal, I guess.

The VPC1 is definitely not for gigging. Its too heavy to transport easily and the computer/software is too cumbersome and error prone for stage performance.

I use the velocity curve presets which are activated by simply holding down a single button and tapping the appropriate piano key. I haven't installed the software for tweaking the velocity curves because I am satisfied with the presets as they are. Maybe someday if I have time and the inclination I will play with it but why mess with a good thing?

I leave my laptop running so all I have to do is turn on the VPC1 and start playing (after a couple of seconds). Of course if windoze runs updates then I have to restart but that only happens maybe once a week.

dpk, I'm afraid I do not have an up-to-date list of dealers in the San Francisco area that stock the VPC1. However, there are a number of Kawai dealers in your area, many of whom should have an MP10 and CA65/CA95 to play test. The keyboard action of the VPC1 will feel similar to the MP10, but offer the improved responsiveness of the CA65/CA95.

May I recommend you contact Kawai America for information regarding Kawai dealers in your are, or try the online dealer locator at the link below:

http://kawaius.com/locator2012.html

I hope this helps.

Kind regards,
James
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These are good points, thanks for all the replies.

Regarding RD700NX vs VPC1: If the action is about equally good, I would slightly tend to the RD700NX since they are the same price (RD700NX goes at about $1800 used, VPC1 is about that much new) just to be able to play live every now and then. I would hate to make compromises, though, and regret the purchase later on. @JFP/maurus: Have you played both of them?

@Kawai James: Thanks! I actually did go to a local store yesterday and tried the MP10, but like others have noted found the action quite a bit heavier than the (Steinway and Kawai) grand pianos they had right there. For that reason I would be curious to really see the VPC1 and see what the fuzz is about.

Based on the feedback so far, it sounds like the preset curves are not *that* important, if I can make my own. This makes me wonder why there is no open-source repository of preset curves for the common keyboard/softpiano pairs.

dpk, I wrote a brief explanation about the touch curves the other day, making an analogy with ice cream.　

It is of course possible for users to create their own touch curve - either using the VPC Editor software, or similar functionality built into their preferred software piano. However, I get the impression that many players are unfamiliar with the subtle connections between touch and sound, and therefore tend to make over-exaggerated changes that are unnatural or imbalanced, resulting in an unsatisfying playing experience. The strength of the 'approved touch curves' is the fact that they are prepared by professional engineers who have years of knowledge and experience working with keyboard actions and sound. Each approved touch curve is created over extended periods of time and requires many hours of testing and retesting - it's a far more complicated process than clicking and dragging a few points on a curve.

Regarding action weight, the MP10's keyboard action is certainly heavier than the RD-700NX. I used to play exclusively on a Nord Electro 3 (not the HP model) and found the Kawai actions to be rather heavy on my out-of-shape hands. However, by contrast the Roland actions still felt very playable. These days, however, I'm fortunate to have an MP8II at my apartment (which I MIDI up to my Nord), and have grown to really love the weighty touch - it no longer feels too heavy for my hands. Whenever I go back to the Electro (e.g. for organ playing) it just feels so, so light... and I expect I would have a similar feeling if I was to a Roland.

Some players prefer the lighter actions, others prefer something a little more substantial - it really comes down to individual personal preference.

Kind regards,
James
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Good point Kawai James! Part of the reason why I don't get into editing the curves is because I doubt I could do a better job than an engineering team.

Thanks James! Thanks in general for all your posts across the different forums, I have read quite a bit from you during my research.
Yes, I could totally see myself over-correcting or tweaking curves over and over again. And I can also see myself regretting my choice, whichever of the two I pick.

Do you happen to have a list of VPC1 vendors in California in general? The ones in the SF area I visited didn't have it yet. I might drive down to L.A. this weekend and cross like half the state, but it seems like the Kawai website only lets me search by one specific town at a time.

dpk, thank you for your kind words!

I'm afraid I do not have a list of dealers in the US, unfortunately. This information is maintained by Kawai America. My strong recommendation would be to give them a call and ask for the most up-to-date information.

If you do decide to take a road-trip to LA, I believe Pierre's Fine Pianos may be able to assist with the VPC1 play-test. In addition, the folks at Kawai America may also suggest that you drop in to the head office and play-test the VPC1 there.

Incidentally, I recently stumbled upon a classifieds ad for a seller based in LA listing a VPC1 at $1600...

Best of luck!

Cheers,
James
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Yes.
You should know that my background is acoustic pianos; while by all means an amateur I played on pianos for years before I got my first digital piano (actually I was also a little bit into experimental music and synths since I was a student, and at some point wanted a 'real' action for these). I'm in the camp of those prefering a substantial, yet controllable action in acoustic pianos.
What's your pianistic background?

I've played both. The action on the VPC1 is better, but as said before it's apple & pears. The VPC1 is NOT a gigging / controller board like the RD700NX. Apart from the fact that it doesn't carry internal sounds. I think you have to make up you mind on what you really want. If you want something to gig with , the VPC1 is not the best choice. If you want the best keys for piano playing with you software at home / studio - the VPC1 is spot-on. The boards you mention are simply to different in design and purpose to compare without keeping the intended use in mind.

it seems a bit academic I have had an order for a Kawai VPC1 on order since May(9 weeks ago)with Thomann one of the largest musical instrument suppliers in Europe and just received an email telling me I will not be receiving delivery until at least October earliest. there is some serious over marketing and under production going on here.
I suggest if you find one in stock buy it.

Best

I've noticed the VPC1 on sale on quite a few different UK sites.
http://www.bonnersmusic.co.uk/kawai...gle&gclid=CPqzvsWuu7gCFTMctAod-EUAIA
http://www.umbrellamusic.co.uk/p/Wo...ase&gclid=CNHq08Ovu7gCFZLItAodAnIAlw
http://www.ukpianos.co.uk/kawai-vpc1