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Stravinsky was well known to insist on only using a special piano to compose on, either at his home, or at summer festivals. He had the pedal disabled so he couldn't just sit and play, as he felt it would influence the act of composing too much. Copland followed a similar habit, as I've heard. They both played quite well.
Now Samuel Barber, on the other hand, liked to noodle around the keyboard a lot while he was writing. And I think that influenced his writing a lot!
The differences between the piano textures from the three of them are unmistakeable.
Yes they are. I really enjoy accompanying singers performing Barber. There are moments where he allows the piano to resonate from the acoustic energy of the singer. It is very special.
....My somewhat narrow and hugely biased thought was that Beethoven (IMNSHO) was lousy at writing for voice, therefore, by analogy, are there other famous or infamous composers who could not play the piano, but, nonetheless, wrote idiomatically for the piano?
The logic of this fairly much escapes me ....but be that as it may, Beethoven was not "lousy" at writing for voice, nor on anything else of any significance with music.
P.S. I do get the 'logic' but the premise is wrong.
Last edited by Mark_C; 07/14/1304:01 PM. Reason: Eliminated some silly stuff about forms of logic, but if you want to see it anyway, it's quoted below
....My somewhat narrow and hugely biased thought was that Beethoven (IMNSHO) was lousy at writing for voice, therefore, by analogy, are there other famous or infamous composers who could not play the piano, but, nonetheless, wrote idiomatically for the piano?
The logic of this fairly much escapes me .....I mean, there's the converse, the inverse, the contrapositive (which for some reason is a word that my Firefox spellcheck doesn't recognize, but heck, as I just found out, it doesn't recgnize "spellcheck" either) .....and this is none of those -- heck, it's not even a syllogism ....but maybe there's some principle of logic heretofore unknown to man (or woman) that's involved here.
But be that as it may, Beethoven was not "lousy" at writing for voice, nor on anything else of any significance with music.
Actually, I think he was also lousy at modulation. Don't get me wrong. I like Beethoven's music, especially the late quartets.
One way to rephrase the initial post might be to look at the purpose of composition:
1) To write music to be played by oneself 2) To write music to be played by a specific group of people 3) To write music to be played by a broad public
Thinking this way, we might get:
1) Liszt, who wrote with himself in mind as a performer 2) Beethoven, who wrote with the expectation that the performer would have great technical command and a high level of artistry 3) Grieg, who wrote music for anyone to enjoy, from amateurs to professionals and everything in between
And of course some composers fall into more than one category. I think Brahms, Schumann and Chopin have works in all three categories.
And some are clearly in one - Samuel Barber for example clearly falls in #2
I also have a feeling that Schubert spent most of his time in #1 and #3, not so much in #2 (same with Granados I suspect). Rachmaninoff didn't care so much about #3 (though he highly respected them as audience members.)
"If we continually try to force a child to do what he is afraid to do, he will become more timid, and will use his brains and energy, not to explore the unknown, but to find ways to avoid the pressures we put on him." (John Holt)
Christian Sinding was a Violinist, and he wrote piano music, mainly because his publisher earned more money on it!!! "Rustle of Spring" is a good example
He also wrote a piano concerto, not as well known! don't think many non pianists did that!
The logic of this fairly much escapes me ....but be that as it may, Beethoven was not "lousy" at writing for voice, nor on anything else of any significance with music.
Mark, I wonder if you sing? Beethoven's vocal writing is great as music, which I'm sure is what you're talking about. But I can see Mwm's point too, because vocally it's not too friendly.
....Beethoven's vocal writing is great as music, which I'm sure is what you're talking about. But I can see Mwm's point too, because vocally it's not too friendly.
With that, I agree.
Do I sing? Yes and no. I've sung in choruses, including a fair amount of Beethoven, including this:
IMO pieces like that in themselves immediately negate anything about his being "lousy" at writing for voice. And that's before we get to the 9th Symphony, which seems to have been Exhibit A on here for his being "lousy," which is fairly absurd.
Except that Franck was a very fine keyboard player including the piano. His chamber music, if nothing else, attests to a highly idiomatic understanding of the piano.
Franck was an extremely proficient pianist (a prodigy) before he even took up the organ. I would rate the PC&F and PA&F amongst some of the greatest piano works of the 19th century, though many seem to disagree. As an organist I'm of course familiar with his organ works, but IMO Franck's successors -Widor and Vierne for example- wrote a lot more idiomatically for the organ. (That is not, however, to say their music is greater than Franck's.)
It is fairly well known here that I am very fond of Edward Elgar's music, and his Concert Allegro would be a good example for this thread. Written for Fannie Davies, it is Elgar's only piano work conceived for the concert hall. It is not very idiomatically written (Elgar could get around the piano, though not a virtuoso), but it dates from 1901, just after a masterpiece -Cockaigne- so he was at the height of his creative powers. It really is a wonderful piece of music, and a few years later we would get the Introduction & Allegro for strings, another masterpiece.
Unless I'm missing something -and I cannot blame it on excessive heat or lack of coffee- I don't think you quite 'got' Mark's post.
....and I thought he had! (i.e. that he was being sarcastic in return) But yeah, it's unclear because it 'works' either way.
BTW, is it a 'he' or 'she'?
I was confused because you and I disagree with Mwm. Calling Beethoven lousy at modulation is a serious accusation, it basically implies that this man was an amateur who didn't know any better.
Whatever, it seems a bit late in the day to worry about it. Beethoven is so universally praised by the public and professionals alike as to make any perceived weaknesses irrelevant. And I do wonder: if Beethoven had been 'better' at modulation, how might that have impacted his music? Would it still be as profoundly stirring and communicative?
Unless I'm missing something -and I cannot blame it on excessive heat or lack of coffee- I don't think you quite 'got' Mark's post.
....and I thought he had! (i.e. that he was being sarcastic in return) But yeah, it's unclear because it 'works' either way.
BTW, is it a 'he' or 'she'?
I was confused because you and I disagree with Mwm. Calling Beethoven lousy at modulation is a serious accusation, it basically implies that this man was an amateur who didn't know any better.
Whatever, it seems a bit late in the day to worry about it. Beethoven is so universally praised by the public and professionals alike as to make any perceived weaknesses irrelevant. And I do wonder: if Beethoven had been 'better' at modulation, how might that have impacted his music? Would it still be as profoundly stirring and communicative?
Something to think about.
He, meaning me, got it. While I rank Beethoven amongst the greatest composers, I don't particularly enjoy listening to his music. I do like playing it however, and my audiences have always been appreciative. As to your thought if B had been better at modulation, I think it would have had a profound effect on future composers. They would not have had a wonder tutorial from B. on how not to modulate. The closest composer I can think of to follow in B.'s footsteps was Prokofiev, and maybe Poulenc, but they had the advantage of a larger harmonic vocabulary.
Boulez has written some works for (or including) piano, but he's not a first-rate concert pianist (unless I'm seriously missing out on something). Apparently he failed the entrance exam for piano performance at the conservatoire playing the same piece that Debussy failed with previously.
Working on: Chopin - Nocturne op. 48 no.1 Debussy - Images Book II
While I rank Beethoven amongst the greatest composers, I don't particularly enjoy listening to his music. I do like playing it however, and my audiences have always been appreciative.
How can one enjoy playing music one does not like to listen to?
While I rank Beethoven amongst the greatest composers, I don't particularly enjoy listening to his music. I do like playing it however, and my audiences have always been appreciative.
How can one enjoy playing music one does not like to listen to?
Don't know, never thought about it. I am prepping the Beethoven Op. 69 Cello Sonata for performance in the fall and loving it. In all my long life I have never heard a performance, recorded or live of this work until a month ago. I listened to the youtube of Gould and Rose. Very cool. Gould plays with the lid fully up but has the piano facing the back wall, which means Rose is on his left. It works really well from a blend standpoint. Gould can play right out.
As to your thought if B had been better at modulation, I think it would have had a profound effect on future composers. They would not have had a wonder tutorial from B. on how not to modulate. The closest composer I can think of to follow in B.'s footsteps was Prokofiev, and maybe Poulenc, but they had the advantage of a larger harmonic vocabulary.
Would you perhaps provide an example of a modulation or two in Beethoven that you find particularly inept? That would help.
While I rank Beethoven amongst the greatest composers, I don't particularly enjoy listening to his music. I do like playing it however, and my audiences have always been appreciative.
How can one enjoy playing music one does not like to listen to?
Don't know, never thought about it. I am prepping the Beethoven Op. 69 Cello Sonata for performance in the fall and loving it. In all my long life I have never heard a performance, recorded or live of this work until a month ago. I listened to the youtube of Gould and Rose. Very cool. Gould plays with the lid fully up but has the piano facing the back wall, which means Rose is on his left. It works really well from a blend standpoint. Gould can play right out.
My point was it seems incredibly illogical to say you don't like listening to Beethoven but say you enjoy playing it. Don't you listen while you play?
....but be that as it may, Beethoven was 
but the premise is wrong.
