Welcome to the Piano World Piano Forums
Over 2.5 million posts about pianos, digital pianos, and all types of keyboard instruments
Join the World's Largest Community of Piano Lovers (it's free)
It's Fun to Play the Piano ... Please Pass It On!

SEARCH
Piano Forums & Piano World
Find a Professional
Our Classified Ads
Find Piano Professionals-

*Piano Dealers - Piano Stores
*Piano Tuners
*Piano Teachers
*Piano Movers
*Piano Restorations
*Piano Manufacturers

Advertise on Piano World

What's Hot!!
Posting Pictures on the Forums
-------------------
Forums RULES & HELP
-------------------
ADVERTISE on Piano World
(125ad)
Piano Life Saver - Dampp Chaser
Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver
(ad)
Piano Buyer Guide
Piano Buyer Fall 2017
Who's Online Now
110 registered members (Anita Potter, anamnesis, Aspiring, anotherscott, Alex_, 29 invisible), 1,445 guests, and 2 spiders.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
(ad)
Estonia Pianos
Estonia Pianos
Quick Links to Useful Piano & Music Resources
Quick Links:
*Advertise On Piano World
*Free Piano Newsletter
*Online Piano Recitals
*Piano Recitals Index
*Piano & Music Accessories
*Live Piano Venues
*Music School Listings
* Buying a Piano
*Buying A Acoustic Piano
*Buying a Digital Piano
*Pianos for Sale
*Sell Your Piano
*How Old is My Piano?
*Directory/Site Map
*Virtual Piano
*Music Word Search
*Piano Videos
*Virtual Piano Chords & Scales
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
#2117068 - 07/13/13 02:50 PM Rachmaninoff's op.23 no.4  
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 623
Dwscamel Offline
500 Post Club Member
Dwscamel  Offline
500 Post Club Member

Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 623
Recently, we had two threads discussing whether or not the score is "sacred". I was delighted to see the number of people who mentioned Rachmaninoff's prelude op.23 no.4 in those threads, saying specifically that they don't follow the fingering as written. By this I mean: some notes written for the left hand one gives to the right hand, and vice versa.

I had been working on this piece when I saw those threads, and I had already thought to do the same thing. "Who can play it as written?" I thought.

With that big difficulty out of the way, I have two other problems with this piece:

1. Voicing! I don't know how to practice making the three voices "distinct"; I usually end up with two distinct voices. But in recordings, especially Ashkenazy's, the three voices are beautifully clear and distinct.

2. Difficult chords: on the first page, the right hand must (loudly) play the chord "C# - D - A - C#". I saw OSK mentioned this chord specifically in one of his posts in the threads discussed above. My thumb can't bend to play the C# and D at the same time, so my two solutions are:

- play C# - A - C# - D instead;
- leave out the D entirely, but I don't want to do this.

So, does anyone know how I can practice/resolve issues 1 and 2? I overcame the difficult-for-me 3-against-2 rhythm, I overcame the 3-against-4, I got most of the notes under my fingers. I really don't want to quit this piece now!

BIG EDIT: I almost forgot: I have to roll some large chords. On the last page, the left hand is given F# - F# - C#, and the right hand is given C# - F# - A - C# - A. When I roll, should I play the F#-F# in the left hand together, and then C#? No matter how I do it, I always match up the C# in the left with the last A in the right.

Last edited by Dwscamel; 07/13/13 02:53 PM.

Beethoven - Op.49 No.1 (sonata 19)
Czerny - Op.299 Nos. 5,7 (School of Velocity)
Liszt - S.172 No.2 (Consolation No.2)

Dream piece:
Rachmaninoff - Sonata 2, movement 2 in E minor
(ad)
Piano & Music Accessories
piano accessories music gifts tuning and moving equipment
#2117080 - 07/13/13 03:17 PM Re: Rachmaninoff's op.23 no.4 [Re: Dwscamel]  
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 22,831
pianoloverus Online content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
pianoloverus  Online Content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Joined: May 2001
Posts: 22,831
New York City
Originally Posted by Dwscamel
Recently, we had two threads discussing whether or not the score is "sacred". I was delighted to see the number of people who mentioned Rachmaninoff's prelude op.23 no.4 in those threads, saying specifically that they don't follow the fingering as written. By this I mean: some notes written for the left hand one gives to the right hand, and vice versa.

I had been working on this piece when I saw those threads, and I had already thought to do the same thing. "Who can play it as written?" I thought.
Although I haven't looked at YouTube perfromances, my guess is that most professionals play it the way it was written regarding the distribution of notes. I think this is a case where one could argue that not doing it that way makes it harder to voice the melody and accompaniment correctly. Of course, for those that have great difficult playing the LH as written, ease of execution by dividing up the LH notes becomes more important.

I believe that when the composer is also a great pianist(as is the case here) one should carefully consider how a piece was written in terms of distribution of notes because the composer probably had good reasons for choosing to write it that way.

#2117089 - 07/13/13 03:32 PM Re: Rachmaninoff's op.23 no.4 [Re: Dwscamel]  
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 22,831
pianoloverus Online content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
pianoloverus  Online Content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Joined: May 2001
Posts: 22,831
New York City
Originally Posted by Dwscamel
With that big difficulty out of the way, I have two other problems with this piece:

1. Voicing! I don't know how to practice making the three voices "distinct"; I usually end up with two distinct voices. But in recordings, especially Ashkenazy's, the three voices are beautifully clear and distinct.
You could practice each voice separately, then practice two of the voices together. Try and listen to figure out why it doesn't sound the way you want it to.

Originally Posted by Dwscamel
2. Difficult chords: on the first page, the right hand must (loudly) play the chord "C# - D - A - C#". I saw OSK mentioned this chord specifically in one of his posts in the threads discussed above. My thumb can't bend to play the C# and D at the same time, so my two solutions are:

- play C# - A - C# - D instead;
- leave out the D entirely, but I don't want to do this.

So, does anyone know how I can practice/resolve issues 1 and 2? I overcame the difficult-for-me 3-against-2 rhythm, I overcame the 3-against-4, I got most of the notes under my fingers. I really don't want to quit this piece now!
I don't think you can put the D on top because that would change the melodic line. Why can't your thumb bend? Can you play just the C# and D without the other two notes?

#2117112 - 07/13/13 04:40 PM Re: Rachmaninoff's op.23 no.4 [Re: Dwscamel]  
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 5,446
Derulux Offline
5000 Post Club Member
Derulux  Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 5,446
Philadelphia
Since I believe I was one of those people, I would be remiss if I didn't respond here. smile

Play the D with the tip of your thumb, and the C# with your knuckle. If it's a difficult stretch to play "vertically", try laying your thumb a little flatter on the key and see if you can't get that extra bit out of it.

If what I wrote makes no sense, I can try to get you a picture of what I mean.. let me know.


Voicing is a matter of both technique and ear. It's a tricky subject to get into without knowing more about why you're having difficulty. Can you post a video recording? Might help identify issues. smile

As for redistributing: yes, absolutely do it. In looking at what Rachmaninoff wrote, I believe he wrote it the way he did for voicing and not necessarily for practicality in the fingers. I've redistributed in more than one of his pieces because my hands just aren't big enough to get to the notes easily. (And sometimes, the hands are crossed, and it's just easier to tag the note with the other hand, like in this piece.)

That said, I would advise at least attempting it "as written" first, because Rachmaninoff was a pianist. And that can make all the difference. In the end, you have to problem solve and decide what is easiest, and what works best, for you.


Every day we are afforded a new chance. The problem with life is not that you run out of chances. In the end, what you run out of are days.
(ad ) MusicNotes.com
sheet music search
#2117116 - 07/13/13 04:44 PM Re: Rachmaninoff's op.23 no.4 [Re: Dwscamel]  
Joined: Feb 2013
Posts: 752
Mwm Offline
500 Post Club Member
Mwm  Offline
500 Post Club Member

Joined: Feb 2013
Posts: 752
For the C# D A C# chord, I use 1-1 2 4. I started out using 1-1 3 5 which seems more logical, but is harder to control the voicing of the thumb.

#2117141 - 07/13/13 05:28 PM Re: Rachmaninoff's op.23 no.4 [Re: Dwscamel]  
Joined: Apr 2013
Posts: 1,906
laguna_greg Offline
1000 Post Club Member
laguna_greg  Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Joined: Apr 2013
Posts: 1,906
guess where in CA and WA
Hi Dw,

The voicing past m. 18 is really a tone color issue.

What I mean by that is that, in order to make the voices heard separately, they require a distinctly different and even exaggerated, consistent color applied to each one. That is the sound effect Ashkenazy pulls off that you are hearing.

Bringing out an inner voice is difficult because, acoustically and neurolinguistically, the top notes are always heard by the listener as a melody even if you don't intentionally bring them out. In order to get the middle voice in that section to pop out, you have to make it much louder and thicker for it to even be heard to match the sonic importance of the top. If you do that with the middle, and then play the top voice with the most transparent color you can manage, the middle will be heard as a separate voice. Effectively, you are bringing the middle voice as far forward as is possible, all the while pushing the top voice back as far as you can make it practicably go. You don't have to worry about the bottom so long as it doesn't overpower the other two. It's so far away in pitch most of the time that it will be heard separately if it's not too loud.

You should try this out with two hands to see if you can even do it at all. Remember, if it doesn't sound like a huge exaggeration to you, then it won't be heard by listeners even 10 feet away.

A couple of things to consider:

1- When the voices get closer together in pitch, you have to exaggerate the effect even more to keep the voices distinct. This is not a terrible problem in this piece, but it happens often enough in Bach and other counterpoint that you should be thinking and listening about it in the same way.

2- Consecutive notes played one after the other that match in color and volume will sound like one voice no matter where they are or what else is playing. This is useful when voices cross, as in m. 31. You can keep the effect going if you match a thick, full color in the ascending voice notes, while maintaining a thin, quiet color in the accompaniment notes.

3- When colors match between the voices, they will cancel each other out. The better you maintain the color matching in each voice "layer", the more easily the listener will distinguish them.

4- When colors match on notes played at the same time vertically, they will also cancel each other out. Sometimes this is an effect you will want to do on purpose, most of the time not. In this piece, mostly not.

Let us know how it goes!


Laguna Greg

1919 Mason & Hamlin AA
http://www.linkedin.com/pub/greg-dempster/34/325/6b9/ (my day job)
#2117670 - 07/14/13 06:46 PM Re: Rachmaninoff's op.23 no.4 [Re: Dwscamel]  
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 9,273
Polyphonist Online content
9000 Post Club Member
Polyphonist  Online Content
9000 Post Club Member

Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 9,273
New York City
There is so much debate going on about how to do some weird twisting thing with the thumb to play the C#-D-A-C# chord. Why not just 1-2-4-5? This seems much simpler, and trying to bend the thumb backwards seems likely to cause injury. It's also much easier to voice well.


Regards,

Polyphonist
#2117681 - 07/14/13 07:11 PM Re: Rachmaninoff's op.23 no.4 [Re: Polyphonist]  
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 13,837
Kreisler Offline
Kreisler  Offline


Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 13,837
Iowa City, IA
Originally Posted by Polyphonist
There is so much debate going on about how to do some weird twisting thing with the thumb to play the C#-D-A-C# chord. Why not just 1-2-4-5? This seems much simpler, and trying to bend the thumb backwards seems likely to cause injury. It's also much easier to voice well.


Because hands that can handle 1245 on that chord are rare, and even when you can stretch enough to reach it, it's difficult to voice.

A couple of creative solutions:

Leave the low C# out. It doubles the melody, so at least the note is still in the chord. Not ideal, but possible.

Roll it. Use a fingering like 2135 or 1135.

Something that always crosses my mind is - What would Rachmaninoff say?

If you can't play it "as written", would Rachmaninoff rather you:

1) Create a version that fits you and is still beautiful and musically interesting.
2) Have you convene a committee to settle on a version that will be acceptable to as many as possible or draw as little ire as possible from those who insist on faithfulness to the score. (Which is what this thread is.)
3) Not play his music.

I cannot believe that Rachmaninoff would choose #2 or 3.

Respect the composer's *musical* wishes, play some music and screw the critics. laugh


"If we continually try to force a child to do what he is afraid to do, he will become more timid, and will use his brains and energy, not to explore the unknown, but to find ways to avoid the pressures we put on him." (John Holt)

www.pianoped.com
www.youtube.com/user/UIPianoPed
#2117682 - 07/14/13 07:12 PM Re: Rachmaninoff's op.23 no.4 [Re: Polyphonist]  
Joined: Feb 2013
Posts: 752
Mwm Offline
500 Post Club Member
Mwm  Offline
500 Post Club Member

Joined: Feb 2013
Posts: 752
Originally Posted by Polyphonist
There is so much debate going on about how to do some weird twisting thing with the thumb to play the C#-D-A-C# chord. Why not just 1-2-4-5? This seems much simpler, and trying to bend the thumb backwards seems likely to cause injury. It's also much easier to voice well.

For me, maybe 2-1-4-5, but not 1-2-4-5.

#2117686 - 07/14/13 07:14 PM Re: Rachmaninoff's op.23 no.4 [Re: Mwm]  
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 9,273
Polyphonist Online content
9000 Post Club Member
Polyphonist  Online Content
9000 Post Club Member

Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 9,273
New York City
Originally Posted by Mwm
Originally Posted by Polyphonist
There is so much debate going on about how to do some weird twisting thing with the thumb to play the C#-D-A-C# chord. Why not just 1-2-4-5? This seems much simpler, and trying to bend the thumb backwards seems likely to cause injury. It's also much easier to voice well.

For me, maybe 2-1-4-5, but not 1-2-4-5.

2-1-4-5 is more difficult (for me, at least).


Regards,

Polyphonist
#2117694 - 07/14/13 07:25 PM Re: Rachmaninoff's op.23 no.4 [Re: Polyphonist]  
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 22,831
pianoloverus Online content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
pianoloverus  Online Content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Joined: May 2001
Posts: 22,831
New York City
Originally Posted by Polyphonist
There is so much debate going on about how to do some weird twisting thing with the thumb to play the C#-D-A-C# chord. Why not just 1-2-4-5? This seems much simpler, and trying to bend the thumb backwards seems likely to cause injury. It's also much easier to voice well.
My guess is only 1 in 10 have big enough hands to play that fingering. I can easily play a tenth but cannot come even close to using that fingering.

#2117696 - 07/14/13 07:27 PM Re: Rachmaninoff's op.23 no.4 [Re: Dwscamel]  
Joined: Feb 2013
Posts: 752
Mwm Offline
500 Post Club Member
Mwm  Offline
500 Post Club Member

Joined: Feb 2013
Posts: 752
I use 1-1-2-4

#2117702 - 07/14/13 07:32 PM Re: Rachmaninoff's op.23 no.4 [Re: Dwscamel]  
Joined: May 2010
Posts: 2,194
Kuanpiano Offline
2000 Post Club Member
Kuanpiano  Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Joined: May 2010
Posts: 2,194
Canada
It's not bending the thumb backwards, it's just bending it down as if you're holding a mechanical pencil and trying to get more pencil lead to come out (very natural motion). Then play the D with the tip of your thumb, and play the C# with the joint.

Concerning the big roll at the end, I just roll the whole thing up. I guess you could take the two F#s are a bass octave, but it's sort of an abrupt departure from the rest of the page.

As for the tricky second page, start by first playing the inner (main) melody very loud with he left hand more quiet, and the top voice very quiet, and then start to shift around your balance in sound - emphasizing maybe top-middle, top-bass, bass-middle, top-only, etc. to practice. The go-to balance I use is very middle-heavy, but you might have your own preferences too. Practice adjusting the volumes and "weights" assigned to each voice and you'll be able to get an effect you want.


Working on:
Chopin - Nocturne op. 48 no.1
Debussy - Images Book II

#2117768 - 07/14/13 09:23 PM Re: Rachmaninoff's op.23 no.4 [Re: Mwm]  
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 20,858
BruceD Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
BruceD  Offline

Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Joined: May 2001
Posts: 20,858
Victoria, BC
Originally Posted by Mwm
I use 1-1-2-4


So do I. I quickly slide the thumb from the C-sharp (as though it were a grace note - but caught with the damper) to the D, playing the D/A/C-sharp as a solid chord. I really don't care what others think of that as I find it a reasonable and musical solution.

Regards,


BruceD
- - - - -
Estonia 190
#2117771 - 07/14/13 09:25 PM Re: Rachmaninoff's op.23 no.4 [Re: Polyphonist]  
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 20,858
BruceD Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
BruceD  Offline

Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Joined: May 2001
Posts: 20,858
Victoria, BC
Originally Posted by Polyphonist
[...]Why not just 1-2-4-5? [...]


You can do that? How many people do you know who can?

Regards,


BruceD
- - - - -
Estonia 190
#2117775 - 07/14/13 09:28 PM Re: Rachmaninoff's op.23 no.4 [Re: BruceD]  
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 9,273
Polyphonist Online content
9000 Post Club Member
Polyphonist  Online Content
9000 Post Club Member

Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 9,273
New York City
Originally Posted by BruceD
Originally Posted by Polyphonist
[...]Why not just 1-2-4-5? [...]


You can do that? How many people do you know who can?

Regards,

I don't know. Generally I don't walk up to people and ask, "Hey, by the way, can you reach the chord C#-D-A-C# in that D major Rachmaninoff prelude, Opus 23 No 4, with the fingering 1-2-4-5?" laugh


Regards,

Polyphonist
#2117783 - 07/14/13 09:35 PM Re: Rachmaninoff's op.23 no.4 [Re: Polyphonist]  
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 20,858
BruceD Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
BruceD  Offline

Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Joined: May 2001
Posts: 20,858
Victoria, BC
Originally Posted by Polyphonist
Originally Posted by BruceD
Originally Posted by Polyphonist
[...]Why not just 1-2-4-5? [...]


You can do that? How many people do you know who can?

Regards,

I don't know. Generally I don't walk up to people and ask, "Hey, by the way, can you reach the chord C#-D-A-C# in that D major Rachmaninoff prelude, Opus 23 No 4, with the fingering 1-2-4-5?" laugh


Really? You don't? Hmm...

Well, what about the first question : Can you play that chord with that fingering?


BruceD
- - - - -
Estonia 190
#2117791 - 07/14/13 09:41 PM Re: Rachmaninoff's op.23 no.4 [Re: BruceD]  
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 9,273
Polyphonist Online content
9000 Post Club Member
Polyphonist  Online Content
9000 Post Club Member

Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 9,273
New York City
Originally Posted by BruceD
Originally Posted by Polyphonist
Originally Posted by BruceD
Originally Posted by Polyphonist
[...]Why not just 1-2-4-5? [...]


You can do that? How many people do you know who can?

Regards,

I don't know. Generally I don't walk up to people and ask, "Hey, by the way, can you reach the chord C#-D-A-C# in that D major Rachmaninoff prelude, Opus 23 No 4, with the fingering 1-2-4-5?" laugh


Really? You don't? Hmm...

Well, what about the first question : Can you play that chord with that fingering?

Of course, or would I have suggested it? wink


Regards,

Polyphonist
#2117801 - 07/14/13 09:51 PM Re: Rachmaninoff's op.23 no.4 [Re: Polyphonist]  
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 5,446
Derulux Offline
5000 Post Club Member
Derulux  Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 5,446
Philadelphia
Originally Posted by Polyphonist
Originally Posted by BruceD
Originally Posted by Polyphonist
Originally Posted by BruceD
Originally Posted by Polyphonist
[...]Why not just 1-2-4-5? [...]


You can do that? How many people do you know who can?

Regards,

I don't know. Generally I don't walk up to people and ask, "Hey, by the way, can you reach the chord C#-D-A-C# in that D major Rachmaninoff prelude, Opus 23 No 4, with the fingering 1-2-4-5?" laugh


Really? You don't? Hmm...

Well, what about the first question : Can you play that chord with that fingering?

Of course, or would I have suggested it? wink

You must have gorilla paws! lol laugh

I can technically "reach" it, but man is it uncomfortable to play a perfect 5th with 24.

After reading you could reach it (hopefully easier than I can if you're playing it that way), I went back to find that thread with a pic of Liszt's hands. Looks like he's got a full inch in palm width on me, and 1.5 inches with fingers resting comfortably. Bet he's got a minor third on me in span, at least. Guessing you're in that neighborhood.. can you reach an 11th or a 12th?


Every day we are afforded a new chance. The problem with life is not that you run out of chances. In the end, what you run out of are days.
#2117805 - 07/14/13 09:55 PM Re: Rachmaninoff's op.23 no.4 [Re: Derulux]  
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 9,273
Polyphonist Online content
9000 Post Club Member
Polyphonist  Online Content
9000 Post Club Member

Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 9,273
New York City
Originally Posted by Derulux
Originally Posted by Polyphonist
Originally Posted by BruceD
Originally Posted by Polyphonist
Originally Posted by BruceD
Originally Posted by Polyphonist
[...]Why not just 1-2-4-5? [...]


You can do that? How many people do you know who can?

Regards,

I don't know. Generally I don't walk up to people and ask, "Hey, by the way, can you reach the chord C#-D-A-C# in that D major Rachmaninoff prelude, Opus 23 No 4, with the fingering 1-2-4-5?" laugh


Really? You don't? Hmm...

Well, what about the first question : Can you play that chord with that fingering?

Of course, or would I have suggested it? wink

You must have gorilla paws! lol laugh

I can technically "reach" it, but man is it uncomfortable to play a perfect 5th with 24.

After reading you could reach it (hopefully easier than I can if you're playing it that way), I went back to find that thread with a pic of Liszt's hands. Looks like he's got a full inch in palm width on me, and 1.5 inches with fingers resting comfortably. Bet he's got a minor third on me in span, at least. Guessing you're in that neighborhood.. can you reach an 11th or a 12th?

I have an 11th, but not a 12th. I can reach a 6th with 2-4, and an octave with 2-5.


Regards,

Polyphonist
#2117815 - 07/14/13 10:22 PM Re: Rachmaninoff's op.23 no.4 [Re: Dwscamel]  
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 623
Dwscamel Offline
500 Post Club Member
Dwscamel  Offline
500 Post Club Member

Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 623
Wow, I didn't realize this thread would focus so much on the fingering of one chord.

I suppose I owe an update:

I can now successfully play the chord using 1 - 1 - 3 - 5. As Derulux suggested, I use the knuckle of my thumb to play the C#, and the side of my thumb to play the D.

Now, I'm just finishing learning the notes. The main issue to tackle is the voicing; I'm following the suggestions posted by Kuan (a real lifesaver, Kuan also helped me with the op.32 no.10 a while back), Greg, and others.

Thanks everyone.

As a funny side note: maybe we should start a separate thread to challenge each other to play chords with strange fingerings.

EDIT: Maybe I should add: I can only reach a 10th.

Last edited by Dwscamel; 07/14/13 11:08 PM.

Beethoven - Op.49 No.1 (sonata 19)
Czerny - Op.299 Nos. 5,7 (School of Velocity)
Liszt - S.172 No.2 (Consolation No.2)

Dream piece:
Rachmaninoff - Sonata 2, movement 2 in E minor
#2117829 - 07/14/13 11:03 PM Re: Rachmaninoff's op.23 no.4 [Re: BruceD]  
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 2,768
jazzyprof Offline
2000 Post Club Member
jazzyprof  Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 2,768
Ann Arbor, MI
Originally Posted by BruceD
Originally Posted by Polyphonist
[...]Why not just 1-2-4-5? [...]


You can do that? How many people do you know who can?

Regards,

I'm afraid I am one of those people who can comfortably play that C#-D-A-C# chord with 1-2-4-5. I must be a freak of nature. grin Oh well, I guess that means I must learn this piece so I can show off with that chord!


"Playing the piano is my greatest joy...period."......JP
#2117832 - 07/14/13 11:19 PM Re: Rachmaninoff's op.23 no.4 [Re: Polyphonist]  
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 5,446
Derulux Offline
5000 Post Club Member
Derulux  Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 5,446
Philadelphia
Originally Posted by Polyphonist
I have an 11th, but not a 12th. I can reach a 6th with 2-4, and an octave with 2-5.

An octave with 25? Ok, now you're just showing off. laugh

I wish I had that kind of span. Awkward stretches (for me) make some pieces difficult that would otherwise be far easier.


Every day we are afforded a new chance. The problem with life is not that you run out of chances. In the end, what you run out of are days.
#2117841 - 07/14/13 11:59 PM Re: Rachmaninoff's op.23 no.4 [Re: Dwscamel]  
Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 392
Allan W. Offline
Full Member
Allan W.  Offline
Full Member

Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 392
Maryland
You know.. I just tried a C#-D-A-C# with 1-2-4-5 and found 2-1-4-5 to be more comfortable. Reminds me of guitar chord fingering.


1980 Yamaha C7 from Rick Jones (http://imgur.com/a/duLJb)
Kawai MP-10
Previously: 2012 Young Chang Y175, which was quite impressive for the price
#2117846 - 07/15/13 12:34 AM Re: Rachmaninoff's op.23 no.4 [Re: Kreisler]  
Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 244
wower Offline
Full Member
wower  Offline
Full Member

Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 244
Calgary
Originally Posted by Kreisler
If you can't play it "as written", would Rachmaninoff rather you:

1) Create a version that fits you and is still beautiful and musically interesting.
2) Have you convene a committee to settle on a version that will be acceptable to as many as possible or draw as little ire as possible from those who insist on faithfulness to the score. (Which is what this thread is.)
3) Not play his music.

I cannot believe that Rachmaninoff would choose #2 or 3.


I've said something similar to this in regard to other composers many in the past - only with a drink in front of me. +1


Bad spellers of the world untie!
#2117858 - 07/15/13 02:29 AM Re: Rachmaninoff's op.23 no.4 [Re: Polyphonist]  
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 5,275
ando Offline
5000 Post Club Member
ando  Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 5,275
Melbourne, Australia
Originally Posted by Polyphonist
Originally Posted by BruceD
Originally Posted by Polyphonist
[...]Why not just 1-2-4-5? [...]


You can do that? How many people do you know who can?

Regards,

I don't know. Generally I don't walk up to people and ask, "Hey, by the way, can you reach the chord C#-D-A-C# in that D major Rachmaninoff prelude, Opus 23 No 4, with the fingering 1-2-4-5?" laugh


It's the first thing I ask anybody. I don't trust anyone who can't do that fingering. laugh

I actually find all of the variants mentioned so far to be quite fine for my hand.

#2117906 - 07/15/13 05:56 AM Re: Rachmaninoff's op.23 no.4 [Re: Dwscamel]  
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 872
drumour Offline
500 Post Club Member
drumour  Offline
500 Post Club Member

Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 872
Scotland
AT first I found that left hand impossible. On first learning I shared between the hands wherever convenient. This achieved something approaching the right sound for the LH accompaniment figures. Stopped practising it.

Sometime later started to relearn and found LH far easier to play as written - freeing up the right hand to cope with enough difficulties of its own. I actually found the redistributions unnecessary or more difficult than the written way.


John

Last edited by drumour; 07/15/13 05:57 AM.

Vasa inania multum strepunt.
#2117995 - 07/15/13 11:27 AM Re: Rachmaninoff's op.23 no.4 [Re: Dwscamel]  
Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 106
TimV Offline
Full Member
TimV  Offline
Full Member

Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 106
New York, NY
Originally Posted by Dwscamel
BIG EDIT: I almost forgot: I have to roll some large chords. On the last page, the left hand is given F# - F# - C#, and the right hand is given C# - F# - A - C# - A. When I roll, should I play the F#-F# in the left hand together, and then C#? No matter how I do it, I always match up the C# in the left with the last A in the right.


I learned this piece under the guidance of an excellent teacher. In both the 1st and 4th sections, the F# minor chord is a "destination point." It's a pretty dramatic harmonic moment. You should be sure to *arrive* there and give it some space to sink in with the audience. I don't have my penciled-up score with me at the moment, but I'm pretty sure I took the top A going over with the left hand. I know it seems really awkward at first, but it forces you to take some time to get your LH back down to the A-C#. Then the RH bounces up for the high F#. By the time you get to this point in the piece you really shouldn't be in strict metronomic tempo anyway. The underlying pulse should be there, but I don't think it's realistic to expect to get all of the massive chords and upper register "echo" notes all in perfect time. Using your LH to hit some of the upper notes of the rolled chords will facilitate stretching the tempo.

As to the question of how Rach would have played this himself. It's almost irrelevant. Unless you have enormous hands like he had, you'll never be able to hit all of those knuckle-crushers in the same way.


--------------------------
Bach WTC 1 #7
Brahms Op 76 #1, Op 118 #5
Debussy Suite Bergamasque

Moderated by  Brendan, Kreisler 

Piano Acc. & Gift Items in
Piano World's Online Store
In PianoSupplies.com ,(a division of Piano World)
our online store for piano and music gifts and accessories, Digital Piano Dolly, party goods, tuning equipment, piano moving equipment, benches, lamps Caster Cups and more.


Free Shipping* on Jansen Artist Piano Benches, Cocoweb Piano Lamps, Hidrau Hydraulic Piano Benches
(*free shipping within contiguous U.S. only)
(ad)
Pearl River & Ritmuller
Pearl River Pianos
(ad)
Pianoteq
PianoTeq 6 Out now
ad
Pierce Piano Atlas


New Topics - Multiple Forums
OrganTeq Alpha - from PianoTeq folks at Modartt
by newer player. 12/13/17 06:40 PM
Feeling lost
by hast66. 12/13/17 05:31 PM
dry air, sticking keys
by f4tune81. 12/13/17 12:27 PM
How many Blues players are there here?
by rocket88. 12/13/17 11:34 AM
A pitch 435. Is it right so?
by Maximillyan. 12/13/17 11:26 AM
Forum Statistics
Forums44
Topics183,259
Posts2,679,034
Members89,267
Most Online15,252
Mar 21st, 2010
(ad)
Accu-Tuner
Sanderson Accu-Tuner
Check It Out!
There's a lot more to Piano World than just the forums.
Click Here to
Explore The Rest of Piano World!!
Visit our online store for gifts for music lovers


 
Help keep the forums up and running with a donation, any amount is appreciated!
Or by becoming a Subscribing member! Thank-you.
Donate   Subscribe
 
Our Piano Related Classified Ads
| Dealers | Tuners | Lessons | Movers | Restorations | Pianos For Sale | Sell Your Piano |

Advertise on Piano World
| Subscribe | Piano World | PianoSupplies.com | Advertise on Piano World |
| |Contact | Privacy | Legal | About Us | Site Map | Free Newsletter |


copyright 1997 - 2017 Piano World ® all rights reserved
No part of this site may be reproduced without prior written permission
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.6.0