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Re: Just pulled trigger on a Casio PX-850
StarvingLion #2115403 07/09/13 10:49 PM
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Originally Posted by StarvingLion
My guess is that 99% of the cheap dp buyers who have never played a piano before don't have a copy of Gieseking's 'Piano Technique' (eg. tone quality, tone duration, tone strength) on the music rest. Therefore, if they start with a yamaha NP-11, P-105, or P-155 makes little difference. All of these dp's will screw up a serious beginner just in a more subtle fashion if you use the P-155, or at least that is my belief.

Tritium makes an interesting point. But, whether specs in a document translate into something real as in this particular case with the Casio PX-850 is another matter. Problem is, I doubt whether advanced classical pianists will agree as to whether the Casio offers real benefits to those seeking nuanced playing capabilities.


Hi SL,

I come from an acoustic piano background (owned a Yamaha GA1 Baby Grand). I would consider myself to be somewhere between high intermediate to lower advanced technical skill level, and was classically trained with formal lessons for at least ten years in my youth. After spending a good 12 - 14 hours, now, with my new PX-850...I would not hesitate in stating that Casio "hit it out of the park" with this keyboard.

Perhaps some (who have not played it) may be dubious about the price...or perhaps have bad experience with cheaper Casio "toy" keyboards. However, I can state without reservation that this is a serious instrument of high quality, with a key action, feel and tone that is simply amazing at this price point.

I would go so far as to suggest that if you were blindfolded, and sat down and played on it, you might easily mistake it for a DP that costs 3 times as much.

Is it as good as my former Yamaha GA1. No, of course not. But as someone who is a serious pianist, and was forced to choose a digital piano solution, I am both satisfied and impressed with what Casio has managed to achieve and deliver with this product.

Also, I would point out that the PX-850 shares the exact same keyboard action as the PX-5S, a product that has been getting rave reviews, both here and on other keyboard sites.

Last edited by Tritium; 07/09/13 10:56 PM.
Re: Just pulled trigger on a Casio PX-850
Tritium #2115426 07/09/13 11:30 PM
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Tritium, I have to admit that based on existing explanations in this thread I don't understand how the enhanced polyphony of the Casio is relevant to superior performance. Your information is rooted in mystery. Perhaps the trisensor feature is important. Your glowing review is unexpected in that you are clearly making astonishing remarks of the 850's performance. Seems to good to be true.





I'm starting the solid wooden keys revolution in digital pianos. Get'em now or be square!
Re: Just pulled trigger on a Casio PX-850
StarvingLion #2115439 07/09/13 11:52 PM
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Originally Posted by StarvingLion
Tritium, I have to admit that based on existing explanations in this thread I don't understand how the enhanced polyphony of the Casio is relevant to superior performance. Your information is rooted in mystery. Perhaps the trisensor feature is important. Your glowing review is unexpected in that you are clearly making astonishing remarks of the 850's performance. Seems to good to be true.





Wow, you are quite the skeptic. grin

No worries, mate...just teasing.

I think my over-all highly favorable impression of the PX-850 is due to a number of factors.

A) 256-note polyphony, and the extra HP that this specification allows for in terms of sample size, as well as virtual modeling of note decay, string resonance, etc.

B) 3-contact key sensor. Yes, most definitely. I can tell the difference in responsiveness and reaction versus older keyboard with 2-contact key sensor.

C) Virtual modeling of string resonance

D) Virtual modeling of damper response and resonance

Again, I encourage you to read other opinions on Casio's PX-5S (identical keyboard and above features)...which has a healthy thread going on here:

Casio PX-5S thread on PianoWorld Digital Piano Forum


As well as here:

Casio PX-5S thread on MusicPlayer forums

Re: Just pulled trigger on a Casio PX-850
Tritium #2115490 07/10/13 02:43 AM
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Quote

. . .
A) 256-note polyphony, and the extra HP that this specification allows for in terms of sample size, as well as virtual modeling of note decay, string resonance, etc.
. . .


PMFJI --

"256-note polyphony" has _nothing_ to do with sample size, or virtual modelling of note decay, or "string resonance".

They're four different, unrelated measures of the sophistication of a digital piano's sound generator.

At least, that's how I understand it. You could build a DP with low polyphony, and big samples, fancy note-decay modelling, and "string resonance".

Or you could build a DP with very high polyphony, short samples, crude note-decay, and no string resonance.

It's not a good idea to use "polyphony" as a proxy for anything else.

. Charles



. Charles
---------------------------
PX-350 / microKorg XL+ / Pianoteq / Lounge Lizard / EV ZXA1 speaker
Re: Just pulled trigger on a Casio PX-850
Tritium #2115510 07/10/13 04:55 AM
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Originally Posted by Tritium
B) 3-contact key sensor. Yes, most definitely. I can tell the difference in responsiveness and reaction versus older keyboard with 2-contact key sensor.

AFAIK, the only thing the third sensor does is to allow you to depress the key again and get a sound, without letting the key go all the way back up. It's like the double escapement feature on a grand. Upright acoustics don't usually have the feature. I don't know if that's what you mean by "responsiveness and reaction", but that's all there is to it.


Roland RD-700NX // Casio PX-5S // Galaxy Vintage D
Re: Just pulled trigger on a Casio PX-850
StarvingLion #2115621 07/10/13 10:50 AM
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"All of these dp's will screw up a serious beginner just in a more subtle fashion if you use the P-155, or at least that is my belief..."

Fair comment. But what really really screws up a beginner is a naff acoustic. There are Loads of those around as you well know. There`s nothing worse except a bad cup o` coffee . . .


"I am not a man. I am a free number"

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Re: Just pulled trigger on a Casio PX-850
StarvingLion #2115643 07/10/13 11:51 AM
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Originally Posted by StarvingLion
......yamaha NP-11, P-105, or P-155 ......... All of these dp's will screw up a serious beginner just in a more subtle fashion if you use the P-155, or at least that is my belief.


On the other hand, a beginner who has some talent and love for the sound will not screw up on any of those instruments. Why would they screw up at all? Demigods such as Bach and Haydn made music on the keyboards available at the time - crude and limited compared with a well made digital piano.

Ordinary mortals do the same.

Except if you're talking about a really out of condition acoustic, about which I'm broadly in agreement with PeterWs. Heaven preserve us from those.


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Re: Just pulled trigger on a Casio PX-850
Tritium #2115700 07/10/13 02:43 PM
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There are a few comments regarding polyphony "all else being equal". I don't believe there is ever a case of "all else being equal" if two similar pianos have different polyphony. If the tone generators were the same, then the manufacturer would quickly label the "low end" model with the higher polyphony number. Higher polyphony would seem to be indicative of a higher quality tone generator. If a lower quality tone generator could do more polyphony, the manufacturer would advertise it as so.

Everyone in this thread is speculating, so we should keep the postulations simple. Barring the unlikely case of a manufacturer intentionally crippling otherwise identical hardware or falsifying specifications, we can assume that the hardware will be marketed with the best of its capabilities.


Playing: Yamaha GC2
Re: Just pulled trigger on a Casio PX-850
Tritium #2115770 07/10/13 04:51 PM
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Re: Just pulled trigger on a Casio PX-850
Tritium #2116208 07/11/13 04:35 PM
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Don`t forget the pictures . . .


"I am not a man. I am a free number"

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Re: Just pulled trigger on a Casio PX-850
emenelton #2116223 07/11/13 05:15 PM
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Well this has been an interesting thread. I buy a Casio PX-850, explained some of the personal, subjective reasons that motivated my selection, as well as listed some of the unit's technical features that also were key aspects in my choice.

I didn't expect this thread to devolve into arguments over what I perceived as being of particular value. For example, the sound engine's polyphony rating, and most recently the three contact sensor key system. What is worse, some of the comments imply that I don't have a legitimate reason for listing something as a "feature", and by extension...that I don't really know what I am talking about.

Polyphony has been beat to death...now the latest is the the 3-contact key sensor.

The third sensor provides the capability for a DP's action to emulate the response of an acoustic grand piano action...specifically, in regards to the double escapement feature. This system allows notes to be repeated without requiring full key returns, thereby allowing the player to execute rapid repeats, and in particular, rapid soft repeats and trills. Although Casio doesn't specifically advertise and associate their "Tri-sensor" with the double escapement mechanism, their system reproduces this effect, as do other DPs with a 3-contact key sensors.

Now, I also recognize this double escapement mechanism is not generally featured in an upright acoustic piano. In other words, with most upright acoustic (or a DP with only 2-contact sensor) the key has to more or less fully return before the note can be repeated. The drawback is that this takes extra time, which lowers the speed and facility of making rapid repetitions...and this especially the case when playing pianissimo or mezzo piano rapid repeats and trills.

With that said, the implied questioning for my listing of the PX-850's 3-contact key sensor as an important "feature/benefit" is confusing...especially since I have stated a few times in this thread that I previously owned a Yamaha GA1 Baby Grand acoustic. I learned on, trained on and owned grand piano(s) that have double escapement. Moreover, I play classical pieces in which this feature is appreciated...and that is why the 3-contact sensor is so important for me, personally.

Last edited by Tritium; 07/11/13 05:18 PM.
Re: Just pulled trigger on a Casio PX-850
Tritium #2116271 07/11/13 06:51 PM
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My harsh tone is a result of a pattern I've noticed within the digital forum:

1. Action is everything. All I need in addition is a "realistic sound" and good price. Yah, a done deal!

2. [6 months later] Can't tolerate the sound of this unit.

3. [Current solution] A stampede into software pianos which I predict will produce a different kind of frustration but in the end...the same fate.

I'm glad I never bought the p-155 because I don't believe I will be happy with any digital piano. Its a computer, not a piano.

[signing off...my last post in the digital forum]


I'm starting the solid wooden keys revolution in digital pianos. Get'em now or be square!
Re: Just pulled trigger on a Casio PX-850
StarvingLion #2116301 07/11/13 07:30 PM
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Originally Posted by StarvingLion
My harsh tone is a result of a pattern I've noticed within the digital forum:

1. Action is everything. All I need in addition is a "realistic sound" and good price. Yah, a done deal!

2. [6 months later] Can't tolerate the sound of this unit.

3. [Current solution] A stampede into software pianos which I predict will produce a different kind of frustration but in the end...the same fate.

I'm glad I never bought the p-155 because I don't believe I will be happy with any digital piano. Its a computer, not a piano.

[signing off...my last post in the digital forum]


StarvingLion, I hope you aren't leaving on my account. I was just trying to clarify a few points that I felt were, IMHO, being misunderstood or misapplied, when it came to commenting on features and/or specifications which were personal, subjective criteria I had used in selecting a particular DP solution.

Certainly, I respect your opinions, and encourage your continued participation.

Also, I agree that a DP is ultimately a compromise, and a series of trade-offs...which have to be balanced, when compared to a true acoustic piano. However, for those of us who want a piano, and for very legitimate reasons cannot select an acoustic piano (in my case, due to the fact that I now live in a Condo)...a Digital Piano is the only viable alternative.



Last edited by Tritium; 07/12/13 02:32 AM.
Re: Just pulled trigger on a Casio PX-850
StarvingLion #2116303 07/11/13 07:39 PM
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StarvingLion, I have read your post, here:

My harsh tone is a result of a pattern I've noticed within the digital forum:

1. Action is everything. All I need in addition is a "realistic sound" and good price. Yah, a done deal!

2. [6 months later] Can't tolerate the sound of this unit.

3. [Current solution] A stampede into software pianos which I predict will produce a different kind of frustration but in the end...the same fate.

I'm glad I never bought the p-155 because I don't believe I will be happy with any digital piano. Its a computer, not a piano.

[signing off...my last post in the digital forum]

__________________________________

Well, sadly, StarvingLion, you (he) won't be able to read this because he has said good-bye.

Digital pianos are awesome beyond description in the same way that bicycles are awesome beyond description comparing bicycles to harleys and digitals to acoustics. But they are totally different things.

A digital can be dragged onto a bus, shoved under a bed, played 24 hours a day, 7 days a week, any time of the day or night.

Sure, the key action currently is less than perfect - but it is way, way, way, way, better than a spring loaded keyboard action when comes to playing the piano.

Sound to me is worth 1%, weighted key action 99.9999999%, battery operated 25% , lightweight 25%.

As as I have said before, if they made a 48 weighted key battery operated keyboard weighing 10 pounds, it would be priceless because you could carry it everywhere and play/practice it anytime - anywhere - on the planet or in outerspace.

When they make a 48 weighted key piano, it will change the piano world forever in the same way that laptops changed the computer world and cell phones used to be the size of a small motorcycle battery and now cell phones are the size of a medium sized chocolate bar.

Last edited by Michael_99; 07/11/13 07:58 PM.
Re: Just pulled trigger on a Casio PX-850
Michael_99 #2116314 07/11/13 08:09 PM
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OP- I am glad you are enjoying your PX-850; sounds like you picked the right piano for you. Could you let us know a little bit about the onboard amplification; how is the bass? Have you experimented with the lid settings- those look truly unique compared to others in the price range.


I myself rather play a good digital (such as my SP280 or PX130 etc..) than a mediocre acoustic. Actually i have not touched an acoustic in a while


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Re: Just pulled trigger on a Casio PX-850
peterws #2116356 07/11/13 10:13 PM
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Originally Posted by peterws
Don`t forget the pictures . . .


Hi Peterws,

Here is a pic I took a little early this afternoon. Incidentally, the small colored stickers are little Post-It stickers, I used to keep track of the parts and their relation to how they were originally packed in the crate...in case I needed to return the unit if I found a problem/defect. I forgot to take them off before taking the pic:



[Linked Image]

Re: Just pulled trigger on a Casio PX-850
Tritium #2116367 07/11/13 10:30 PM
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Tritium,

Very nice, congrats! Though it is hard to associate practising Chopin with those nice looking guitars... Enjoy your new instrument.


CA95, Sennheiser HD598
Re: Just pulled trigger on a Casio PX-850
semo #2116371 07/11/13 10:37 PM
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Originally Posted by semo
Tritium,

Very nice, congrats! Though it is hard to associate practising Chopin with those nice looking guitars... Enjoy your new instrument.


The first two guitars (sonic blue and candy apple red) are Yngwie Malmsteen Signature Strats. Believe it or not, my guitar playing is in the neo-classical / Yngwie style...so it all kind of fits in. That is not to say I can't play some mean ass blues (Clapton/SRV/Gilmour), when I feel like it. grin cool

Last edited by Tritium; 07/11/13 10:37 PM.
Re: Just pulled trigger on a Casio PX-850
Tritium #2116381 07/11/13 10:58 PM
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Originally Posted by Tritium
The first two guitars (sonic blue and candy apple red) are Yngwie Malmsteen Signature Strats. Believe it or not, my guitar playing is in the neo-classical / Yngwie style...so it all kind of fits in. That is not to say I can't play some mean ass blues (Clapton/SRV/Gilmour), when I feel like it. grin cool


Awesome!!


CA95, Sennheiser HD598
Re: Just pulled trigger on a Casio PX-850
PossumES8Krome61 #2116440 07/12/13 02:54 AM
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Originally Posted by Possum SP280Krome
OP- I am glad you are enjoying your PX-850; sounds like you picked the right piano for you. Could you let us know a little bit about the onboard amplification; how is the bass? Have you experimented with the lid settings- those look truly unique compared to others in the price range.


I myself rather play a good digital (such as my SP280 or PX130 etc..) than a mediocre acoustic. Actually i have not touched an acoustic in a while


Hi Possum,

Yes, I am very favorably impressed with the onboard speaker/sound system. This model can get crazy loud, and as such, I never have the volume dial set beyond noon (12:00) position. Like most DPs, it has line outs, so I could connect it also to my Yamaha MSR100 active monitor. However, I haven't felt the need to.

The onboard speakers/amplification provides more than enough volume...without even breaking a sweat. Mind you, my PX-850 is installed in a modest size room. Obviously, if you were performing in front of an audience, for example in a club or at a church, you would use an outboard active monitor/PA. But in that case, you probably would also be using a slab style unit (e.g. Casio PX-5S or Kawai ES7).

The lid simulator function seems a bit of a "gimmick", IMHO. I just leave it set to the full "open" position (which emulates a grand piano with fully open soundboard). What definitely is not a "gimmick", is the actual physical lid that can be opened on top of the piano console. These are two separate things, and I was at first confused by their similar wording. In any event, when you open up the physical "lid" on the PX-850 console, this directs some of the sound from the speakers directly back at you. It really makes a difference, and provides more ambience and a larger, more immersive soundscape. You also can hear the string and damper resonances better, which in my opinion helps provide a closer interaction and connection between the player and the piano.

The opening up of the top lid on the console, and resulting increase in sound projection, can be seen/heard in this video, at time stamp beginning around 08:00. The entire video is well worth watching (note, at one point, the reviewer accidentally calls the model the "830", but that was a mistake. It is the 850):

Casio PX-150/750/850 overview








Last edited by Tritium; 07/12/13 03:17 AM.
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