Welcome to the Piano World Piano Forums
Over 2.5 million posts about pianos, digital pianos, and all types of keyboard instruments
Join the World's Largest Community of Piano Lovers (it's free)
It's Fun to Play the Piano ... Please Pass It On!

SEARCH
Piano Forums & Piano World
What's Hot!!
Posting Pictures on the Forums
-------------------
Forums RULES & HELP
-------------------
ADVERTISE on Piano World
(125ad)
Piano Life Saver - Dampp Chaser
Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver
(ad)
Piano Buyer Guide
Piano Buyer Fall 2017
Who's Online Now
60 registered members (AprilE, BachToTheFuture, butchkoch, Almaviva, 19 invisible), 1,703 guests, and 2 spiders.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
(ad)
Estonia Pianos
Estonia Pianos
Quick Links to Useful Piano & Music Resources
Our Classified Ads
Find Piano Professionals-

*Piano Dealers - Piano Stores
*Piano Tuners
*Piano Teachers
*Piano Movers
*Piano Restorations
*Piano Manufacturers

Quick Links:
*Advertise On Piano World
*Free Piano Newsletter
*Online Piano Recitals
*Piano Recitals Index
*Piano & Music Accessories
*Live Piano Venues
*Music School Listings
* Buying a Piano
*Buying A Acoustic Piano
*Buying a Digital Piano
*Pianos for Sale
*Sell Your Piano
*How Old is My Piano?
*Directory/Site Map
*Virtual Piano
*Music Word Search
*Piano Videos
*Virtual Piano Chords & Scales
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
#2110954 - 07/01/13 01:18 AM da capo al fine senza ripetizione - 1st or 2nd ending?  
Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 6,738
casinitaly Offline

Gold Supporter until March 1 2014
casinitaly  Offline

Gold Supporter until March 1 2014


Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 6,738
Italy
Hello, my teacher is not available for a while, and I've got a question about a piece I'm working on: Schumann's Sicilienne.

The piece starts with 2 repeated sections, the second of which has 2 endings.

When I play d.c. al fine senza ripetizione, am I to play the second ending or the first? (it falls before the "fine", not at the "fine")

I've been trying to listen to performances on youtube but they are all different, and most disconcerting of all is the University of Iowa Piano Pedagogy Video Recording Project, where the performance doesn't even go to the "fine"!!!

I'm sure there is a general rule on this - but when I was working with my teacher I had just reached working out all the technical bits, and hadn't done the da capo when we finished lessons for the summer, and I hadn't realized I didn't understand this bit.

My gut feeling is that I should use the second ending - but gut feelings aren't always right!

Thanks in advance for any advice you may have for me.


[Linked Image]
(ad)
Piano & Music Accessories
piano accessories music gifts tuning and moving equipment
#2110958 - 07/01/13 01:41 AM Re: da capo al fine senza ripetizione - 1st or 2nd ending? [Re: casinitaly]  
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 5,704
Gary D. Offline
5000 Post Club Member
Gary D.  Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 5,704
South Florida
If you know that d.c. al fine senza ripetizione = go back to the beginning and start at "the top", then go to the end without repetitions, you already know everything that anyone else knows. So just use your own musical judgment, or go by what sounds best to you. If taking the first endings causes you to repeat material, go to the second endings. If the final second ending (wherever you see the word "fine") will take you to a spot or measure that sounds final, just do that.

Perhaps someone else knows the music you are talking about. Usually skipping repeats involves skipping 1st endings.


Piano Teacher
#2110961 - 07/01/13 01:57 AM Re: da capo al fine senza ripetizione - 1st or 2nd ending? [Re: Gary D.]  
Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 6,738
casinitaly Offline

Gold Supporter until March 1 2014
casinitaly  Offline

Gold Supporter until March 1 2014


Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 6,738
Italy
Originally Posted by Gary D.
If you know that d.c. al fine senza ripetizione = go back to the beginning and start at "the top", then go to the end without repetitions, you already know everything that anyone else knows. So just use your own musical judgment, or go by what sounds best to you. If taking the first endings causes you to repeat material, go to the second endings. If the final second ending (wherever you see the word "fine") will take you to a spot or measure that sounds final, just do that.

Perhaps someone else knows the music you are talking about. Usually skipping repeats involves skipping 1st endings.


Note: Bold face and underlining are my additions.

Thank you Gary.
Both the first and the second first ending both sound ok. I was looking for an online copy of the sheet music to link to but can't find one. I just wanted to make clear that the 2nd ending isn't at the "fine" point.

However, your comment "usually skipping repeats involves skipping first endings" is exactly the guideline I was looking for. I figured there had to be a general rule, I just couldn't remember ever having this situation before.





[Linked Image]
#2110976 - 07/01/13 02:56 AM Re: da capo al fine senza ripetizione - 1st or 2nd ending? [Re: casinitaly]  
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 5,704
Gary D. Offline
5000 Post Club Member
Gary D.  Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 5,704
South Florida
Theoretically "fine" should mark the end, so wherever that is, and it should be notated exactly, should tell you the ending point.

I believe I would know exactly what you need to do if I saw the music, and most likely there will be others here who will say the same thing. smile


Piano Teacher
#2110981 - 07/01/13 03:30 AM Re: da capo al fine senza ripetizione - 1st or 2nd ending? [Re: casinitaly]  
Joined: May 2012
Posts: 1,393
Bobpickle Offline

Gold Supporter until July 10  2014
Bobpickle  Offline

Gold Supporter until July 10  2014


Joined: May 2012
Posts: 1,393
Cameron Park, California
The piece can be found on page 9 of http://petrucci.mus.auth.gr/imglnks/usimg/0/0a/IMSLP51556-PMLP02707-RS67.pdf

with the mentioned University of Iowa Piano Pedagogy Video Recording Project here:


"[The trick to life isn't] just about living forever. The trick is still living with yourself forever."
#2110996 - 07/01/13 04:55 AM Re: da capo al fine senza ripetizione - 1st or 2nd ending? [Re: casinitaly]  
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 5,704
Gary D. Offline
5000 Post Club Member
Gary D.  Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 5,704
South Florida
The directions:

Vom Anfang ohne Wiederholung bis zim Schluss

From the beginning without repeat till the "closing" (end).

Which is no help.

No one knows where to end it because it is in the key of A minor. At the point where it says "Schluss" it cadences to C major (implied), relative major. But you have to stop on the 2nd beat (counting in 6), because it moves to E, dominant, and you can't stop there.

A lot of people are going to say, "Screw it, I'm going to end at the end of the page, where there is a final A minor chord."

"Dog's breakfast", as my Ozie friends say!


Piano Teacher
#2111005 - 07/01/13 05:18 AM Re: da capo al fine senza ripetizione - 1st or 2nd ending? [Re: casinitaly]  
Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 6,738
casinitaly Offline

Gold Supporter until March 1 2014
casinitaly  Offline

Gold Supporter until March 1 2014


Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 6,738
Italy
Thanks Bobpickle.

In my copy the "fine" is not where "schulss" shows in the link you provided - but the link you gave does explain why the Iowa U guy finished where he did..... In my copy the "fine" is just before the 32nd notes.


I think it sounds very very odd to end on the schulss as marked ---- because as Gary says,(far more articulately that I'm able to) the sound of the music implies that you are moving into something, not stopping.

So......as my Italian friends would say, with a shrugging of shoulders "boh!" . (A sound effect for "who knows".)

Thanks again!



[Linked Image]

Moderated by  Ken Knapp 

Piano Acc. & Gift Items in
Piano World's Online Store
In PianoSupplies.com ,(a division of Piano World)
our online store for piano and music gifts and accessories, Digital Piano Dolly, party goods, tuning equipment, piano moving equipment, benches, lamps Caster Cups and more.


Free Shipping* on Jansen Artist Piano Benches, Cocoweb Piano Lamps, Hidrau Hydraulic Piano Benches
(*free shipping within contiguous U.S. only)
(ad)
Pearl River & Ritmuller
Ritmuller Pianos
(ad)
Pianoteq
PianoTeq 6 Out now
ad
Pierce Piano Atlas


New Topics - Multiple Forums
Dead Steinway Octaves
by musicpassion. 11/22/17 09:47 PM
Windows based MIDI Sound Modules ?
by Piano World. 11/22/17 08:23 PM
finger tapping technique
by Osho. 11/22/17 03:28 PM
Two very basic questions about jazz
by pianoloverus. 11/22/17 03:16 PM
Forum Statistics
Forums44
Topics182,895
Posts2,673,674
Members89,176
Most Online15,252
Mar 21st, 2010
(ad)
Accu-Tuner
Sanderson Accu-Tuner
Check It Out!
There's a lot more to Piano World than just the forums.
Click Here to
Explore The Rest of Piano World!!
Visit our online store for gifts for music lovers


 
Help keep the forums up and running with a donation, any amount is appreciated!
Or by becoming a Subscribing member! Thank-you.
Donate   Subscribe
 
Our Piano Related Classified Ads
| Dealers | Tuners | Lessons | Movers | Restorations | Pianos For Sale | Sell Your Piano |

Advertise on Piano World
| Subscribe | Piano World | PianoSupplies.com | Advertise on Piano World |
| |Contact | Privacy | Legal | About Us | Site Map | Free Newsletter |


copyright 1997 - 2017 Piano World ® all rights reserved
No part of this site may be reproduced without prior written permission
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.6.0