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I once had an adjudicator of a well-known competition commenting on my lady student's red shoes... Made me wonder what they were listening to, or in this case, looking at/for.

While I think there is some logical inconsistency in the judge's comments, I don't think complete logical consistency is required in every musical choice. I don't think every great teacher or pianist is necessarily always logically consistent in their ideas. Maybe the judge has simply heard some great pianist who plays Bach in a Romantic way and was very convinced by that performance. Edit: Or for and even better explanation see Kreisler's comment.

For example, I can imagine the judge explaining his ideas by saying something like "Beethoven's instrument is closer to a modern piano so one should/can try and emulate how the piece sounded on Beethoven's instrument. Bach's keyboard instrument is so far from a modern piano that there's no point in trying to imitate that sound." I'm not saying I agree with that argument but I think there's at least some logic to it.

All the comments about other motivations are complete speculation. No one has any idea why the judge felt this way or even if the quoted comments correctly reflect the judge's ideas. Maybe a simple follow up question would reveal the ideas expressed in the OP don't accurately reflect the judge's ideas.

Kreisler, both pianists played like robots! Neither were connecting with the piece.
The Beethoven was played technically perfect and the Bach was too! If these 2 pianists were in a section together they undoubtedly would have taken out first and second place!
Thats what is so baffling- it seems that for some reason this adjudicator in one section gave the Beethoven no placing for 1 reason, but then in another section, gave someone first place who 'broke' this rule of the adjudicator and the adjudicator changed their rule! Or belief, rather!

-Everyone in the theatre was shocked too that the Beethoven didn't win in his section. It was one of those things where it was obvious who should have won, but the adjudicator didn't see it that way!

--Growing up, I use to do competitions (I always did well) but my teacher use to say "If you want to compete in competitions, play sport!" Which I think is so true! I don't think music should be judged like this. However, things like competitions and eisteddfods do have awesome positives- its great to get plenty of performance opportunity!

Hi Pianolover,

"While I think there is some logical inconsistency in the judge's comments, I don't think complete logical consistency is required in every musical choice."

When it comes to awarding scholarships, admission letters, stipends, government grants, teaching assistantships, approving concert proposals at major venues, or other awards that can make or break an educational (and therefore musical) career, I think that's one of the most inane, self-serving and ignorant remarks I've heard anybody make on these forums.

Do you want to try that again? Please make the effort. I'd like to have a better opinion of you.

Or are you really talking about everybody else's students but your own? If the latter, then we'll know exactly what to think.

Hi iMou,

""If you want to compete in competitions, play sport!" laugh Which I think is so true!..."

I hear you. And it shouldn't be judged on those values, or it's not Art any longer.

I don't have any students. My point was that strict logical consistency may not always the most important criteria to judge a musical performance. I don't think that good judges or great pianists are always concerned about how their ideas fit together in terms of consistency.

I gave two specific examples of how the judge might have justified his thinking. Kreisler explained how the statements the judge made could be perfectly appropriate.

...inane...self-serving...ignorant...

Well, you're proving my point for me so well. When you have, or have had, even one horse in the race, your (wrong-headed) opinion will count for more. Ivo Pogorelich and Marthe Argerich would both be kicking you in the head by now, considering how he lost (read: won) the Chopin in Warsaw!

I'm so glad that that jury's opinion counted for less than the straw on a tent floor!

Competitions do suck. Even the head-injured can be invited to adjudicate, and most obviously are at every level, over and over again. Their opinions last longer than the shelf life of a dairy product and, possibly, affect careers, and earning potentials.

It's only a Small Revenge, but How Satisfying It Is (for the assailant, anyway)!

Let's chill a bit. I think we're talking about a teen competition here, not the Cliburn.

Judging is, well, a judgment not a mathematical proof. It will always be subject to second guessing and disagreement. How much a young person gets out of this sort of event is often determined, or at least strongly influenced, by the attitude they take in. My eldest played in many of these events for, oh, about six years. I think he really enjoyed it. He won some that he deserved to win. He lost some that he deserved to lose. He also lost some he deserved to win and won some he deserved to lose … that's my opinion, of course. The judges who had him winning events I thought he should have lost clearly disagreed.

The primary point of these events was to participate, to meet and socialize with other young people with the same interests and intensity, and to learn a bit about the process and about yourself under modestly stressful circumstances. Yes, there was often real money and/or exposure on the line. Only one person got to play the concerto, and first was worth more than honorable mention. In most events, however, the cream did rise even if one could argue about subtle differences that distinguished first from third. If you are the sort that gets really upset when you perceive injustice, this stuff can really suck. But if you have more of an "oh well" attitude, it can be fun.

Piano,

As I said, when you have a horse in the race, even your own (which you don't and never did), you opinion will carry some weight.

..and you don't know what you are talking about in regard to this one competition...

Until then. Really....

Chill yourself, and show some respect for those of us who actually work in the profession....

...which you don't...

BTW, have you ever competed in a juried regional exam?

Cheers!

Hey Laguna -- are you on something today?

You're being quite 'out there.' I don't remember you being like this before but maybe I just haven't been paying enough attention.

About this quite mild stuff in your reply to me:


I can only say, take a look at Kreisler's posts. Not to mention mine.
(We said essentially the same.)

I think you're taking what is being reported here way too much at face value. I doubt that the judge's true view is what is being stated. I've got to think it's more likely that he was talking very much about how the fortes in the Beethoven were done, not merely any simplistic thing related to fortepianos.

Look.....Which thing is more likely: that the judge is such a complete fool.......or that what's being said here is only part of the story, including maybe that it somewhat misrepresents what the judge said, perhaps even because the judge didn't do the greatest job of making himself clear? Here's how I see it:

Frequency of piano adjudicators being such fools: more than 0% but not very high.

General frequency of things that are said about such complex things being only part of the story: hovering around 100%.

Hi Mark,

I have no idea what you are talking about.

How many of your students have competed in a regional or national juried competition, e.g. the Gina Bachauer, for example? How many have presented at auditions for graduate programs at major schools? How many of of your mid-career students have submitted an application for an NEA Recital/Artist grant? Have you ever coached and/or accompanied a singer who got to the Met National Finals?

Answer mine first, and I'll answer yours second.

BTW, most of my students, even the singers, have on the whole done very well at these auditions/competitions. How did yours do?

". I doubt that the judge's true view is what is being stated."

All the more reason to call a spade a spade, which I did in earlier posts on this thread. Did you think I didn't have strong opinions on this topic?

Sorry!

Cheers!

I'm happy enough with what I've said.

I thought you would be.

Your posts are dripping with respect …

I have no idea why you seem to take what I'm saying as some sort of personal assault that demands put downs as a response. I thought my post was measured, reasoned, and reasonable. Your response was essentially a finger.