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Question about pedalling Chopin's Waltz in A Minor (Posth).. #1350928
01/16/10 07:02 AM
01/16/10 07:02 AM
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 351
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Samuel1993 Offline OP
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Hi there,
I've been looking through a few Waltzes and I came across this one - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Smqj_z04i4A
Just a question, where would it be appropriate to use pedal in this piece? Because I want to give it that smooth legato sound, yet not too much - as it's a waltz.
Thank you
Samuel


Currently working on...
Chopin - Fantasie Impromptu in C sharp minor Op.66
Mozart - Piano Sonata in E flat K.282
Liszt - Romance in E minor "O pourquoi donc" S.196
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Re: Question about pedalling Chopin's Waltz in A Minor (Posth).. [Re: Samuel1993] #1350978
01/16/10 10:17 AM
01/16/10 10:17 AM
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New York City
pianoloverus Offline
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Try to find some good editions with pedalling to help you learn how to use the pedal. Try and figure out why the editor marked the pedalling the way he did.

You can use the left hand harmony changes as a basic idea of when to change the pedal. In this piece it sounds like, with a few exceptions, the harmony changes on the first beat of every measure.

Re: Question about pedalling Chopin's Waltz in A Minor (Posth).. [Re: Samuel1993] #1351024
01/16/10 11:34 AM
01/16/10 11:34 AM
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Hop Offline
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Originally Posted by Samuel1993
Hi there,
I've been looking through a few Waltzes and I came across this one - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Smqj_z04i4A
Just a question, where would it be appropriate to use pedal in this piece? Because I want to give it that smooth legato sound, yet not too much - as it's a waltz.
Thank you
Samuel


When I looked at this video, it seemed to me that the tempo was slightly less than 100 beats per minute. My version shows that it should be allegretta (about 126-138 beats per minute). Try getting up to that speed, especially in measure 21!!.

As for pedaling, it shows pedaling from the first beat of each measure thru the second, then releasing the pedal for the third beat.

The tendency (for me at least) is to play this waltz in a manner that we are used to when we think of waltzes. It seems that Chopin had a different view of how it should be played, as I've indicated above.

Hop


HG178, Roland FP-5, Casio PX 130
Re: Question about pedalling Chopin's Waltz in A Minor (Posth).. [Re: Hop] #1351040
01/16/10 11:57 AM
01/16/10 11:57 AM
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Last edited by pianoloverus; 01/16/10 03:00 PM.
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Re: Question about pedalling Chopin's Waltz in A Minor (Posth).. [Re: pianoloverus] #1351143
01/16/10 02:47 PM
01/16/10 02:47 PM
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Victoria, BC
BruceD Offline
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The phrasing noted by Chopin would corroborate the idea of lifting the pedal on the third beat. For the entire Waltz, however, much depends on the sustain of your particular piano, but don't use the damper pedal to create legato; use it to add sonority and fullness. Legato should come primarily from good fingering. That said, of course you definitely need to use the damper pedal to connect that low bass note on the first beat of each measure with the chord on the second beat that completes the harmony.

In the Urtext edition there is no indication of tempo given by Chopin; the 126-138 must be an editor's marking if you have it in your copy, although I don't disagree with it, necessarily. I do find that the video you linked to is a little on the slow side; it certainly is not my idea of Allegretto.

I'm not sure what you mean by "play[ing] this waltz in a manner that we are used to when we think of waltzes." Keep in mind two things :

1) the Waltz was a relatively new dance form in the beginning of the 19th century; what the Strauss father and son did with it was certainly not evident in the early part of the century and what we think of as Waltz tempo may not necessarily be what Chopin thought.

2) Chopin's Waltzes were not conceived as pieces to be danced to just as the Polonaises were not true dance-able pieces, though firmly inspired by dance forms. Each was inspired by the dance form, but "intellectualized" or "concertized" - for lack of better words - to be performed as music to be listened to, not danced to.

When you understand that, then it's easier to appreciate the varying tempi among the Chopin Waltzes, from Lento (Op. 34, No 2) to Vivo (Op 18), Vivace (Op 34, No 1; Op 34, No 3); Molto vivace (Op. 64, No 1). Others simply bear the ambiguous tempo indications of Tempo giusto (Op. 64, No. 2) or Tempo di Valse (Op. 69, No. 1).

Note that all the Waltzes from Op. 69 and later have tempo indications and metronome markings added by Fontana, except Op. 70, No. 3 (Moderato), No 17 in A minor (no opus No. - Allegretto; No 18 in E-flat (Sostenuto); these indications do not appear in the original manuscript versions, from what I understand.

Regards,


BruceD
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Estonia 190
Re: Question about pedalling Chopin's Waltz in A Minor (Posth).. [Re: BruceD] #1354689
01/21/10 11:00 AM
01/21/10 11:00 AM
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Hop Offline
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All good points. My reference is the Alfred Masterworks version. It has been suggested to me that Fontana's tempi are not very accurate, but I can't verify that one way or the other. As you say, I think that any tempo markings are added by editors. I am hearing that Alfred is the most accurate.

Who knows?

Hop


HG178, Roland FP-5, Casio PX 130
Re: Question about pedalling Chopin's Waltz in A Minor (Posth).. [Re: Hop] #1355052
01/21/10 09:03 PM
01/21/10 09:03 PM
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custard apple Offline
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What about the Mazurkas ? Did Chopin intend them to be like waltzes to be danced to ? Or can you play them slow and sombre ?

Re: Question about pedalling Chopin's Waltz in A Minor (Posth).. [Re: custard apple] #1355167
01/22/10 12:32 AM
01/22/10 12:32 AM
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Originally Posted by custard apple
What about the Mazurkas ? Did Chopin intend them to be like waltzes to be danced to ? Or can you play them slow and sombre ?


No, the Mazurkas were not composed to be danced to; none of Chopin's "dance" music was.

Look at the tempo (performance) indications for the Mazurkas and you'll see that they are very varied. Each one should be played according to the indication Chopin has given. One can't say "slow and sombre" necessarily, except those that are intended to be played that way.

Some of the tempo (performance) indications include :
- Lento
- Lento, ma non troppo
- Mesto
- Maestoso
- Andantino
- Moderato
- Moderato, con anima
- Allegretto
- Animato
- Allegro non troppo
- Vivace
- Vivo
- Vivo ma non troppo
- Presto ma non troppo

Regards,


BruceD
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Estonia 190
Re: Question about pedalling Chopin's Waltz in A Minor (Posth).. [Re: BruceD] #1368303
02/08/10 12:26 AM
02/08/10 12:26 AM
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custard apple Offline
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Thanks Bruce for this help.
I found a version of Mazurka Op 67 no. 2 the easy G minor one, suggests Cantabile at 144. 144 sounds fast to me especially if I want to bring out the singing style.
I know that Bach didn't really give tempo indications for his WTC. Does Chopin intend his players to stick to a particular tempo suggestion or do you think he was happy for his players to interpret/improvise ?

Re: Question about pedalling Chopin's Waltz in A Minor (Posth).. [Re: Samuel1993] #2107709
06/25/13 09:37 AM
06/25/13 09:37 AM
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Re: Question about pedalling Chopin's Waltz in A Minor (Posth).. [Re: Hop] #2107750
06/25/13 11:23 AM
06/25/13 11:23 AM
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Originally Posted by Hop
[quote=Samuel1993]
As for pedaling, it shows pedaling from the first beat of each measure thru the second, then releasing the pedal for the third beat.



This is the pedaling marked by my kid's teacher for the most part. He has a PhD in piano performance.


Amateur musician, piano and violin parent
Re: Question about pedalling Chopin's Waltz in A Minor (Posth).. [Re: Samuel1993] #2107825
06/25/13 01:27 PM
06/25/13 01:27 PM
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Let us hope that by now Samuel has resolved the question he posed when he started this thread three and a half years ago.

Regards,


BruceD
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Estonia 190
Re: Question about pedalling Chopin's Waltz in A Minor (Posth).. [Re: Samuel1993] #2108228
06/26/13 04:39 AM
06/26/13 04:39 AM
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I found this thread also because I am having the same trouble.
Very inexperienced as far as pedal goes, so I really dont like my sound in FC waltz 69 nuum 2 in Bminor. Then I hear Kissin and want to kill myself!
I think it is necessary between the first LH note and the subsequent chord. I am not that sure about pedaling from the first chord to the second chord, nor from the last (third) chord and the first note of the next beat....also, i discovered my piano i can keep the pedal almost completely down, and the pedal still doesnt kick in. This definitely helps reducing my overall foot movements, but at the same time this makes more difficult (for me at least) to have more subtle effects.

Re: Question about pedalling Chopin's Waltz in A Minor (Posth).. [Re: BruceD] #2108394
06/26/13 01:19 PM
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Originally Posted by BruceD
Let us hope that by now Samuel has resolved the question he posed when he started this thread three and a half years ago.

Regards,


ROFL - oops! grin


Amateur musician, piano and violin parent

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