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Re: Online piano tuning courses for self [Re: Numbered] #2106830
06/23/13 02:55 PM
06/23/13 02:55 PM
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 9,230
France
O
Olek Offline
9000 Post Club Member
Olek  Offline
9000 Post Club Member
O

Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 9,230
France
Originally Posted by Mark Davis
Originally Posted by Olek
Reblitz say no much about tuning and all that partial match control theory is real but can be misleading.


Isaac can you please explain why the partial match theory is misleading and what tuning method you propose is better than that?

Thank you


Sorry I missed your post Mark. I just say it makes you listen to the most prominent beat but also to filter too much.

Also you listen with partial match on one string generally, listening partial match with the final unison is really tiring.

I have heard tuning s where the partial match was emphasized, as 12 th in the soprano, and that seem to go against homogeneity of the tuning generally speaking.

In fact for years I thought it was an absolute necessity to compare M3 and 10Ths or 10ths and 17ths, to know how is the octave and I was surprised that it is not at all necessary, nor for 5ths. You can train to listen directly to the whole activity and it is way quieter.

I guess that this was due to the learning of the stacked M3ds that put the accent on FBI from the start.
I could not imagine that you can get stacked M3 while tuning with 4ths and 5ths.

In the end it is possible. May be it is more easy for me because I learned first without those octave size theory, I dont know.

My first tuning master, simply told me when the octave was nice. it was then "consonant" something simple.

But to listen to that one may possibly get used to hear very slow beats in the octave, as the consonance is when they have lowered enough.
Using just one partial mat(ch possibly can make octave mismatches, I thought that the iH was more smooth and even than it is ,k may be the reason why a serial of octaves using partial match can sound somewhat unreal at some point.

That's just me, possibly, but I am happy to be back at something more directly related to the music.

In the end I feel no desire to test the size of octave I use, I know sometime I make them more open and sometime less.



Last edited by Olek; 06/23/13 02:57 PM.

Professional of the profession.
Foo Foo specialist
I wish to add some kind and sensitive phrase but nothing comes to mind.!
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Re: Online piano tuning courses for self [Re: Mark Cerisano] #2106831
06/23/13 02:55 PM
06/23/13 02:55 PM
Joined: Dec 2012
Posts: 297
New York, N.Y.
H
Herr Weiss Offline
Full Member
Herr Weiss  Offline
Full Member
H

Joined: Dec 2012
Posts: 297
New York, N.Y.
Originally Posted by Mark Cerisano, RPT
[quote=Brooke2949]
As far as I know, I am the only person offering this at this time. Email mark@mrtuner.com and I will put you on my mailing list.


Very surprised that you are not aware that Bill Bremmer teaches via SKYPE, besides all the free articles and videos on his wonderful web site.


"Respond intelligently, even to unintelligent treatment."
-Lao Tzu
Re: Online piano tuning courses for self [Re: Brooke2949] #2106835
06/23/13 03:03 PM
06/23/13 03:03 PM
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 9,230
France
O
Olek Offline
9000 Post Club Member
Olek  Offline
9000 Post Club Member
O

Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 9,230
France
We never are THE ONLY ONES (there are always people more silly than us wink


Professional of the profession.
Foo Foo specialist
I wish to add some kind and sensitive phrase but nothing comes to mind.!
Re: Online piano tuning courses for self [Re: Olek] #2106848
06/23/13 03:44 PM
06/23/13 03:44 PM
Joined: Dec 2012
Posts: 297
New York, N.Y.
H
Herr Weiss Offline
Full Member
Herr Weiss  Offline
Full Member
H

Joined: Dec 2012
Posts: 297
New York, N.Y.
Originally Posted by Olek
We never are THE ONLY ONES (there are always people more silly than us wink


And smarter.


"Respond intelligently, even to unintelligent treatment."
-Lao Tzu
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Re: Online piano tuning courses for self [Re: Herr Weiss] #2106896
06/23/13 06:01 PM
06/23/13 06:01 PM
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 9,230
France
O
Olek Offline
9000 Post Club Member
Olek  Offline
9000 Post Club Member
O

Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 9,230
France
Originally Posted by Herr Weiss
Originally Posted by Olek
We never are THE ONLY ONES (there are always people more silly than us wink


And smarter.


Impossible !


Professional of the profession.
Foo Foo specialist
I wish to add some kind and sensitive phrase but nothing comes to mind.!
Re: Online piano tuning courses for self [Re: Brooke2949] #2106939
06/23/13 07:12 PM
06/23/13 07:12 PM
Joined: May 2013
Posts: 375
G
Gary Fowler Offline
Full Member
Gary Fowler  Offline
Full Member
G

Joined: May 2013
Posts: 375
Some of my best, most loyal customers, are those who once tried to tune their own pianos. I always encourage customers to "go for it". I will even order the tools(hammer, mutes, etc) they will need.


Making the world a better sounding place, one piano at a time...
Re: Online piano tuning courses for self [Re: Gary Fowler] #2106978
06/23/13 09:23 PM
06/23/13 09:23 PM
Joined: Jun 2010
Posts: 526
USA
J
Jbyron Offline
500 Post Club Member
Jbyron  Offline
500 Post Club Member
J

Joined: Jun 2010
Posts: 526
USA
Originally Posted by Gary Fowler
Some of my best, most loyal customers, are those who once tried to tune their own pianos. I always encourage customers to "go for it". I will even order the tools(hammer, mutes, etc) they will need.


I tuned for a really excellent pianist a while back, she had a Yamaha C7 and played regularly on cruise ships. There were three different tuning hammers laying around the room and the piano sounded absolutely dreadful, I mean utterly horrendous when I arrived. There was some kind of make-shift cotton mute laying on the plate. I spent a couple of hours tuning the piano and getting it back into shape. When I was finished, all she did was sat at the piano and started banging on one bass note over and over with a disappointed look on her face claiming she needed to tune the piano herself again, as it was not 'right'.


Tuner-Technician


Re: Online piano tuning courses for self [Re: Gary Fowler] #2107054
06/24/13 03:47 AM
06/24/13 03:47 AM
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 9,230
France
O
Olek Offline
9000 Post Club Member
Olek  Offline
9000 Post Club Member
O

Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 9,230
France
Originally Posted by Gary Fowler
Some of my best, most loyal customers, are those who once tried to tune their own pianos. I always encourage customers to "go for it". I will even order the tools(hammer, mutes, etc) they will need.


If you do show them how to bring an unison back, why not, but even the ones that are gifted cannot really do it, and once the unison you leave are stable enough, there is no point to retune them (they do not sound horrible even when the piano is out of tune) . When an unison move , first zingles appears on the notes with less good hammer mating, then some sort of slow roll appears, which is typically one of the most difficult thing in tuning (correct just minor things on unison)

So in the end no much is left to the customer he could do himself.

I do not push them but if they ask I do not discourage them too much.



Professional of the profession.
Foo Foo specialist
I wish to add some kind and sensitive phrase but nothing comes to mind.!
Re: Online piano tuning courses for self [Re: Herr Weiss] #2107265
06/24/13 02:01 PM
06/24/13 02:01 PM
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 3,087
Montreal, Quebec, Canada
M
Mark Cerisano Offline
3000 Post Club Member
Mark Cerisano  Offline
3000 Post Club Member
M

Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 3,087
Montreal, Quebec, Canada
Originally Posted by Herr Weiss
Originally Posted by Mark Cerisano, RPT
[quote=Brooke2949]
As far as I know, I am the only person offering this at this time. Email mark@mrtuner.com and I will put you on my mailing list.


Very surprised that you are not aware that Bill Bremmer teaches via SKYPE, besides all the free articles and videos on his wonderful web site.


I am too! I was not aware. Bill is an acquaintance of mine; he was my examiner when I took the CTE exam.

Brooke, if I were you, when you're ready, contact Bill and me, and anyone else you can find who offers this service, and interview us over Skype and find someone who best suits your learning style.


Mark Cerisano, RPT, B.Sc.(Mech.Eng), Dip.Ed.(Music)
www.howtotunepianos.com
Re: Online piano tuning courses for self [Re: Jbyron] #2107269
06/24/13 02:07 PM
06/24/13 02:07 PM
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 3,087
Montreal, Quebec, Canada
M
Mark Cerisano Offline
3000 Post Club Member
Mark Cerisano  Offline
3000 Post Club Member
M

Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 3,087
Montreal, Quebec, Canada
Originally Posted by Jbyron
Originally Posted by Gary Fowler
Some of my best, most loyal customers, are those who once tried to tune their own pianos. I always encourage customers to "go for it". I will even order the tools(hammer, mutes, etc) they will need.


I tuned for a really excellent pianist a while back, she had a Yamaha C7 and played regularly on cruise ships. There were three different tuning hammers laying around the room and the piano sounded absolutely dreadful, I mean utterly horrendous when I arrived. There was some kind of make-shift cotton mute laying on the plate. I spent a couple of hours tuning the piano and getting it back into shape. When I was finished, all she did was sat at the piano and started banging on one bass note over and over with a disappointed look on her face claiming she needed to tune the piano herself again, as it was not 'right'.


I've got a few of those stories too. I just quietly walk out and make a mental note never to call or tune for that person again. Check out Michael Port's "Book Yourself Solid". He mentions the "Velvet Rope"; a concept where you tailor your business to serve the customers you love to work for, and they love you. They get to pass the Velvet Rope.

I still wonder though if that person had some good direction, if she wouldn't have more respect for tuners. I would say the most important thing that my students learn from my course, is that.


Mark Cerisano, RPT, B.Sc.(Mech.Eng), Dip.Ed.(Music)
www.howtotunepianos.com
Re: Online piano tuning courses for self [Re: Mark Cerisano] #2107348
06/24/13 04:18 PM
06/24/13 04:18 PM
Joined: Jun 2010
Posts: 526
USA
J
Jbyron Offline
500 Post Club Member
Jbyron  Offline
500 Post Club Member
J

Joined: Jun 2010
Posts: 526
USA
Originally Posted by Mark Cerisano, RPT
Originally Posted by Jbyron
Originally Posted by Gary Fowler
Some of my best, most loyal customers, are those who once tried to tune their own pianos. I always encourage customers to "go for it". I will even order the tools(hammer, mutes, etc) they will need.


I tuned for a really excellent pianist a while back, she had a Yamaha C7 and played regularly on cruise ships. There were three different tuning hammers laying around the room and the piano sounded absolutely dreadful, I mean utterly horrendous when I arrived. There was some kind of make-shift cotton mute laying on the plate. I spent a couple of hours tuning the piano and getting it back into shape. When I was finished, all she did was sat at the piano and started banging on one bass note over and over with a disappointed look on her face claiming she needed to tune the piano herself again, as it was not 'right'.


I've got a few of those stories too. I just quietly walk out and make a mental note never to call or tune for that person again. Check out Michael Port's "Book Yourself Solid". He mentions the "Velvet Rope"; a concept where you tailor your business to serve the customers you love to work for, and they love you. They get to pass the Velvet Rope.

I still wonder though if that person had some good direction, if she wouldn't have more respect for tuners. I would say the most important thing that my students learn from my course, is that.


Thanks for the book lead, I'll check it out. thumb


Tuner-Technician


Re: Online piano tuning courses for self [Re: Herr Weiss] #2107583
06/25/13 12:14 AM
06/25/13 12:14 AM
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 4,016
Madison, WI USA
B
Bill Bremmer RPT Offline
4000 Post Club Member
Bill Bremmer RPT  Offline
4000 Post Club Member
B

Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 4,016
Madison, WI USA
Originally Posted by Herr Weiss
Originally Posted by Mark Cerisano, RPT
[quote=Brooke2949]
As far as I know, I am the only person offering this at this time. Email mark@mrtuner.com and I will put you on my mailing list.


Very surprised that you are not aware that Bill Bremmer teaches via SKYPE, besides all the free articles and videos on his wonderful web site.


I only offer to coach PTG Associate Members who are preparing for the Tuning Exam. It is part of the process that PTG calls "Exam Prescreening". As many people here know, I believe in the value of PTG membership and particularly in the value of the RPT credential.

I have long been aware of the number of people who initially learned to tune pianos with an ETD but since tuning the two central octaves from C3-C5 aurally is a requirement of the Tuning Exam, I decided 10 years ago to try to help such people gain the aural tuning skills that are required.

To be sure, many people have benefited from my efforts. I have seen that people who learned first to use an ETD found it nearly impossible to subsequently gain the necessary aural tuning skills. I wanted to find a way around that for them. I came up with several ideas that have turned out to be useful.

I am far too busy with my business to simply offer a free piano tuning school on Skype! But I will help any PTG Associate who wishes to pass the Tuning Exam as time for me permits. Any PTG RPT should do the same.

Therefore, I would recommend Mark C's course because that is part of his total business. I would also recommend the Randy Potter course. Any piano tuning course that teaches temperament tuning by using the truncated 4ths & 5ths temperament sequence from William Braide White's century old book, I would not recommend. It will inevitably lead to tuning a Reverse Well temperament instead of Equal Temperament (ET).

The original poster said she had trouble getting the temperament right. If the temperament produced from following the instructions given does not work, then what exactly are the results? I would bet 10 tuning fees that I know exactly what it is!

Put a recording on here of a progression of Major thirds from F3-A3 to D#4-F4 of any temperament results from using that kind of sequence and 99 times out of 100, it will be nothing but Reverse Well!

If the original poster believes (as most people do) that Equal Temperament and Well Tempered Tuning (Well Temperament) are synonymous, then some re-education is in order. If the original poster believes that any results from tuning a temperament are ET, no matter how poorly those results turn out to be, then a whole lot of re-education is in order!

Equal temperament and proper subsequent octave tuning can only be correct within extremely narrow parameters! Otherwise, the results are something else and that something else is not likely to make for good music from the piano. It is not child's play. It is not generally for casual hobbyists or for Do-it-Yourselfers!

Piano tuning is a very refined art and science. No piano technician, even of the highest caliber will ever claim absolute perfection of any particular tuning. If they do, it is a false proclamation. There are far too many variables for any piano tuning to be called "perfect". In the end, it is an impossible task. One can only do one's best in any instance. A piano technician can only hope that with every tuning accomplished that the results will be pleasing.

People in this forum constantly discuss a better way and refinements that are possible. That is all well and good but the end result of absolute perfection remains an impossible task.

To the original poster: There is nothing at all wrong with deciding to learn to tune the piano yourself. However, if the reason you want to do that is that you don't want to pay for piano tunings by a professional technician, then your reason for wanting to learn to tune the piano yourself is the wrong reason!

There is no reason why a piano teacher cannot also be a piano technician. There are many people who do exactly that. They teach piano, play the piano well and also tune the pianos of their students and also perhaps of other clients. That being said, Piano Technology is a profession in itself. If you decide to be a piano technician, then you will be dividing your time between teaching music and tuning pianos. Time, of course, has its limits.

There is also much more than tuning involved in maintaining a piano. There is NO place in this world for people who only know how to tune a piano (especially only those who depend upon an ETD to do it) but know nothing else about piano maintenance. Surely, there are piano tuning specialists (as I am) who mostly engage in tuning but you would be doing a disservice to yourself and your clients if tuning (on whatever level of expertise there may be) is all that you could offer.

If you limit yourself only to tuning, both you and your clients will develop a false sense that the piano has been well maintained. You would only be a hobbyist and you would be taking away the legitimate business from people who earn their living by tuning and maintaining pianos.

That being said, it is all well and good that you have explored what it takes to tune a piano. If you find that what it takes to do so is beyond your grasp, then you will know and understand why piano technicians exist. Tuning is only part of what you need to know. Surely, it is the principle and most important part of piano service but complete ignorance of all other aspects does not contribute to the business of piano maintenance. It only weakens it.

You can specialize in tuning and refer repairs, regulation and voicing to other technicians, yes, but You may well find that no true piano technician would only be interested in resolving the problems that you cannot resolve yourself. If you tuned a piano, for example and found that it had "bobbling hammers", no piano technician that I ever knew or heard of would accept the job of simply correcting the problem you identify. Your piano tuning would also most likely be deemed unsatisfactory!

Therefore, I agree with others who have said that you must either make a full and true commitment to piano technology or leave it alone entirely, having learned that there is much more to it than you ever thought about.

If the latter turns out to be the case, you just have to figure in the costs of maintaining your piano to your liking and find a full service piano technician who will do that for you. The arrangement can be mutually beneficial. Your piano technician may want to work with you in terms of costs if you also refer your students to that piano technician.

Piano technicians need daily business all year long to make a living. So do piano teachers. We can't all only tune the pianos each year in the Fall after the heat goes on, after all. We need full employment all year long, especially in Summer!

Summer is the time when longer term projects such as interior cleaning, regulation and voicing are welcome opportunities for piano technicians. I am sure that many of your student's pianos as well as your own could use that kind of maintenance.

I always find enough of that kind of work to do all year long because I have been in the business for 44 years and I am now a 30 year RPT. I depend upon people who have the discretionary income to be able to afford piano maintenance.

There are enough people for whom the piano is important enough in their lives that they will pay for piano tuning in the dog days of Summer or to have other maintenance done when I actually have time to do it when the demand for tunings is not so overwhelming as it can be during the September-May months.

You have a decision to make! Do you want to be a piano technician as well as be a piano teacher? If not, you can and should develop a relationship with a good piano technician and make that relationship be good for you both.

Keep your own piano well maintained at all times. If your students comment that your piano seems so much better than theirs at home in terms of response to touch and clarity of tuning, then encourage your students to hire your favorite piano technician to service their piano as well. Emphasize that the costs are worth the benefits.

Nobody needs a good piano to eat, be clothed or sheltered. As piano technicians, we serve the people who have decided to spend the money they have on what is precious to them in their lives outside of work or school. We can't make a living tuning and otherwise servicing pianos for people who have no money to spend for it.

The task at hand is to find a way to make your business as a piano teacher seem important enough in people's lives that they are willing to spend the money that it takes to provide that precious part of life for them. Piano technicians are used to serving people with very ordinary instruments but which can still provide just as much enjoyment and enrichment in their lives as very expensive pianos can for the people who can afford them. Any piano can be made to perform at its best! That is our business!

You must decide for yourself which business you want to be in or if you want to be in a multi-faceted business. There is no wrong or right decision to make, only a decision that you think you can personally handle.



Bill Bremmer RPT
Madison WI USA
www.billbremmer.com
Re: Online piano tuning courses for self [Re: Bill Bremmer RPT] #2107725
06/25/13 09:37 AM
06/25/13 09:37 AM
Joined: Jun 2010
Posts: 526
USA
J
Jbyron Offline
500 Post Club Member
Jbyron  Offline
500 Post Club Member
J

Joined: Jun 2010
Posts: 526
USA
Originally Posted by Bill Bremmer RPT
Originally Posted by Herr Weiss
Originally Posted by Mark Cerisano, RPT
[quote=Brooke2949]
As far as I know, I am the only person offering this at this time. Email mark@mrtuner.com and I will put you on my mailing list.


Very surprised that you are not aware that Bill Bremmer teaches via SKYPE, besides all the free articles and videos on his wonderful web site.


I only offer to coach PTG Associate Members who are preparing for the Tuning Exam. It is part of the process that PTG calls "Exam Prescreening". As many people here know, I believe in the value of PTG membership and particularly in the value of the RPT credential.

I have long been aware of the number of people who initially learned to tune pianos with an ETD but since tuning the two central octaves from C3-C5 aurally is a requirement of the Tuning Exam, I decided 10 years ago to try to help such people gain the aural tuning skills that are required.

To be sure, many people have benefited from my efforts. I have seen that people who learned first to use an ETD found it nearly impossible to subsequently gain the necessary aural tuning skills. I wanted to find a way around that for them. I came up with several ideas that have turned out to be useful.

I am far too busy with my business to simply offer a free piano tuning school on Skype! But I will help any PTG Associate who wishes to pass the Tuning Exam as time for me permits. Any PTG RPT should do the same.

Therefore, I would recommend Mark C's course because that is part of his total business. I would also recommend the Randy Potter course. Any piano tuning course that teaches temperament tuning by using the truncated 4ths & 5ths temperament sequence from William Braide White's century old book, I would not recommend. It will inevitably lead to tuning a Reverse Well temperament instead of Equal Temperament (ET).

The original poster said she had trouble getting the temperament right. If the temperament produced from following the instructions given does not work, then what exactly are the results? I would bet 10 tuning fees that I know exactly what it is!

Put a recording on here of a progression of Major thirds from F3-A3 to D#4-F4 of any temperament results from using that kind of sequence and 99 times out of 100, it will be nothing but Reverse Well!

If the original poster believes (as most people do) that Equal Temperament and Well Tempered Tuning (Well Temperament) are synonymous, then some re-education is in order. If the original poster believes that any results from tuning a temperament are ET, no matter how poorly those results turn out to be, then a whole lot of re-education is in order!

Equal temperament and proper subsequent octave tuning can only be correct within extremely narrow parameters! Otherwise, the results are something else and that something else is not likely to make for good music from the piano. It is not child's play. It is not generally for casual hobbyists or for Do-it-Yourselfers!

Piano tuning is a very refined art and science. No piano technician, even of the highest caliber will ever claim absolute perfection of any particular tuning. If they do, it is a false proclamation. There are far too many variables for any piano tuning to be called "perfect". In the end, it is an impossible task. One can only do one's best in any instance. A piano technician can only hope that with every tuning accomplished that the results will be pleasing.

People in this forum constantly discuss a better way and refinements that are possible. That is all well and good but the end result of absolute perfection remains an impossible task.

To the original poster: There is nothing at all wrong with deciding to learn to tune the piano yourself. However, if the reason you want to do that is that you don't want to pay for piano tunings by a professional technician, then your reason for wanting to learn to tune the piano yourself is the wrong reason!

There is no reason why a piano teacher cannot also be a piano technician. There are many people who do exactly that. They teach piano, play the piano well and also tune the pianos of their students and also perhaps of other clients. That being said, Piano Technology is a profession in itself. If you decide to be a piano technician, then you will be dividing your time between teaching music and tuning pianos. Time, of course, has its limits.

There is also much more than tuning involved in maintaining a piano. There is NO place in this world for people who only know how to tune a piano (especially only those who depend upon an ETD to do it) but know nothing else about piano maintenance. Surely, there are piano tuning specialists (as I am) who mostly engage in tuning but you would be doing a disservice to yourself and your clients if tuning (on whatever level of expertise there may be) is all that you could offer.

If you limit yourself only to tuning, both you and your clients will develop a false sense that the piano has been well maintained. You would only be a hobbyist and you would be taking away the legitimate business from people who earn their living by tuning and maintaining pianos.

That being said, it is all well and good that you have explored what it takes to tune a piano. If you find that what it takes to do so is beyond your grasp, then you will know and understand why piano technicians exist. Tuning is only part of what you need to know. Surely, it is the principle and most important part of piano service but complete ignorance of all other aspects does not contribute to the business of piano maintenance. It only weakens it.

You can specialize in tuning and refer repairs, regulation and voicing to other technicians, yes, but You may well find that no true piano technician would only be interested in resolving the problems that you cannot resolve yourself. If you tuned a piano, for example and found that it had "bobbling hammers", no piano technician that I ever knew or heard of would accept the job of simply correcting the problem you identify. Your piano tuning would also most likely be deemed unsatisfactory!

Therefore, I agree with others who have said that you must either make a full and true commitment to piano technology or leave it alone entirely, having learned that there is much more to it than you ever thought about.

If the latter turns out to be the case, you just have to figure in the costs of maintaining your piano to your liking and find a full service piano technician who will do that for you. The arrangement can be mutually beneficial. Your piano technician may want to work with you in terms of costs if you also refer your students to that piano technician.

Piano technicians need daily business all year long to make a living. So do piano teachers. We can't all only tune the pianos each year in the Fall after the heat goes on, after all. We need full employment all year long, especially in Summer!

Summer is the time when longer term projects such as interior cleaning, regulation and voicing are welcome opportunities for piano technicians. I am sure that many of your student's pianos as well as your own could use that kind of maintenance.

I always find enough of that kind of work to do all year long because I have been in the business for 44 years and I am now a 30 year RPT. I depend upon people who have the discretionary income to be able to afford piano maintenance.

There are enough people for whom the piano is important enough in their lives that they will pay for piano tuning in the dog days of Summer or to have other maintenance done when I actually have time to do it when the demand for tunings is not so overwhelming as it can be during the September-May months.

You have a decision to make! Do you want to be a piano technician as well as be a piano teacher? If not, you can and should develop a relationship with a good piano technician and make that relationship be good for you both.

Keep your own piano well maintained at all times. If your students comment that your piano seems so much better than theirs at home in terms of response to touch and clarity of tuning, then encourage your students to hire your favorite piano technician to service their piano as well. Emphasize that the costs are worth the benefits.

Nobody needs a good piano to eat, be clothed or sheltered. As piano technicians, we serve the people who have decided to spend the money they have on what is precious to them in their lives outside of work or school. We can't make a living tuning and otherwise servicing pianos for people who have no money to spend for it.

The task at hand is to find a way to make your business as a piano teacher seem important enough in people's lives that they are willing to spend the money that it takes to provide that precious part of life for them. Piano technicians are used to serving people with very ordinary instruments but which can still provide just as much enjoyment and enrichment in their lives as very expensive pianos can for the people who can afford them. Any piano can be made to perform at its best! That is our business!

You must decide for yourself which business you want to be in or if you want to be in a multi-faceted business. There is no wrong or right decision to make, only a decision that you think you can personally handle.



Well said.









Tuner-Technician


Re: Online piano tuning courses for self [Re: Brooke2949] #2107745
06/25/13 10:12 AM
06/25/13 10:12 AM
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Olek Offline
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Fascinating lecture but the reject of 4th and 5th is premature.

They are perfectly used to obtain all other inter als so should not be dismissed.

Besides, they sound as unisons so they can be learned as easily.

Hail 5th and 4th's (minor, of course :-) )


Professional of the profession.
Foo Foo specialist
I wish to add some kind and sensitive phrase but nothing comes to mind.!
Re: Online piano tuning courses for self [Re: Brooke2949] #2107905
06/25/13 02:46 PM
06/25/13 02:46 PM
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Bill Bremmer RPT Offline
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Isaac, as you will probably soon see from a 45 minute video that I made at Grandpianoman's house, I tune using exclusively 4ths & 5ths with the exception of the initial set of contiguous thirds. My objection is to a temperament sequence that relies solely on three or four estimates of how much to temper each fourth and fifth before there is even one check available. Yes, some people can do it but most end up tuning in Reverse Well that way and don't even realize it.


Bill Bremmer RPT
Madison WI USA
www.billbremmer.com
Re: Online piano tuning courses for self [Re: Brooke2949] #2107999
06/25/13 04:50 PM
06/25/13 04:50 PM
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Olek Offline
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Bill I was pushing !!!
but I find that tuning the octave plus 2 5ths and 2 4ths allows enough precision, and oblige the tuner to learn to listen to those intervals more than when they follow a stack of M3.

that gives them more weight, I think.

It is also more immediately "musical"
Octave = consonance
5th = consonance
4th = consonance

While with stacked 3ds you have 3 intervals very active that you cannot judge the musicality unless you are very experienced .
SO you may provide a bulletproof solution but it does not push on musicality, the first octave can be too large easily, a name could be find as "reverse ladder of 3ds temp". wink


Last edited by Olek; 06/26/13 04:18 AM.

Professional of the profession.
Foo Foo specialist
I wish to add some kind and sensitive phrase but nothing comes to mind.!
Re: Online piano tuning courses for self [Re: Olek] #2108154
06/25/13 10:18 PM
06/25/13 10:18 PM
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Bill Bremmer RPT Offline
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Isaac,

In my videos, I show a "bullet proof" (as you describe it) method of constructing the initial ladder of contiguous Major thirds. When you have those correct, you can hardly go wrong with the rest of the temperament octave. On my website, I offer several ways to go from there and each one of them is about tuning 4ths and 5ths thereafter.

When you have the 4ths & 5ths truly correct, you don't really need to bother with or check any Rapidly Beating Intervals (RBI). But I must say that merely guessing at how the 4ths & 5ths (Slowly Beating Intervals ((SBI)) must sound proves to be inaccurate for most tuners and that inaccuracy leads directly to Reverse Well!

Many You Tube videos which are online confirm that to me! Also, the many pianos, (concert stages and Steinway Hall in NYC included) that I encounter that have Reverse Well on them instead of any semblance of ET confirm that to me as well.

I will say it again and I mean it: Show me a piano tuned aurally using only a 4ths & 5ths temperament tuning sequence and I will show you a piano tuned in Reverse Well 99 times in 100.

It is not ET just because the intent is ET. It is not ET if the belief is only in ET. It is only ET if it is truly ET! 99 in one hundred pianos tuned aurally are not really ET but Reverse Well instead. I stand firmly by that statement!

Last edited by Bill Bremmer RPT; 06/25/13 10:29 PM.

Bill Bremmer RPT
Madison WI USA
www.billbremmer.com
Re: Online piano tuning courses for self [Re: Bill Bremmer RPT] #2108161
06/25/13 10:51 PM
06/25/13 10:51 PM
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beethoven986 Offline
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Originally Posted by Bill Bremmer RPT

In my videos, I show a "bullet proof" (as you describe it) method of constructing the initial ladder of contiguous Major thirds. When you have those correct, you can hardly go wrong with the rest of the temperament octave. On my website, I offer several ways to go from there and each one of them is about tuning 4ths and 5ths thereafter.

When you have the 4ths & 5ths truly correct, you don't really need to bother with or check any Rapidly Beating Intervals (RBI). But I must say that merely guessing at how the 4ths & 5ths (Slowly Beating Intervals ((SBI)) must sound proves to be inaccurate for most tuners and that inaccuracy leads directly to Reverse Well!

Many You Tube videos which are online confirm that to me! Also, the many pianos, (concert stages and Steinway Hall in NYC included) that I encounter that have Reverse Well on them instead of any semblance of ET confirm that to me as well.

I will say it again and I mean it: Show me a piano tuned aurally using only a 4ths & 5ths temperament tuning sequence and I will show you a piano tuned in Reverse Well 99 times in 100.

It is not ET just because the intent is ET. It is not ET if the belief is only in ET. It is only ET if it is truly ET! 99 in one hundred pianos tuned aurally are not really ET but Reverse Well instead. I stand firmly by that statement!


I am most looking forward to your class at the PTG convention!

Re: Online piano tuning courses for self [Re: Bill Bremmer RPT] #2108210
06/26/13 01:55 AM
06/26/13 01:55 AM
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Mark R. Offline
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Originally Posted by Bill Bremmer RPT
Show me a piano tuned aurally using only a 4ths & 5ths temperament tuning sequence and I will show you a piano tuned in Reverse Well 99 times in 100.


Well then, how many tuners out of 100 use only 4ths and 5ths? No RBI checks, no SBI checks, no progressiveness checks, no outside-M6-inside-M3 checks, no corrections?

1 in 100?


Autodidact interested in piano technology.
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1922 49" Zimmermann, project piano.
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Re: Online piano tuning courses for self [Re: Brooke2949] #2108222
06/26/13 03:03 AM
06/26/13 03:03 AM
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Olek Offline
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I have seen lot of temp tuned with a ladder of 3ds in a too large octave and they all have some too large 5ths (over "pure")

So I suggest the cause of what Bill call RW is not absolutely a 4th and 5th temp.

Also intervals are tuned a little temporary , some mistakes are allowed assuming one cam detect them. It is not harder with a slow beating construction and the initial octave sound better generally.


Professional of the profession.
Foo Foo specialist
I wish to add some kind and sensitive phrase but nothing comes to mind.!
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