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Re: How well built is Ritmuller piano? [Re: zhengy4] #2106464
06/22/13 09:35 PM
06/22/13 09:35 PM
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BTW, Jerry Lee Lewis is completely nuts IMHO....

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Re: How well built is Ritmuller piano? [Re: zhengy4] #2106494
06/22/13 11:01 PM
06/22/13 11:01 PM
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Met him, and he is a about a half-bubble off plumb. Like Mickey better, he's probably the most likeable of the three cousins.

Jimmy...well, now...may be one of the sharpest business minds for an old guy, that I've ever ran across.

And he still plays pretty well.


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Re: How well built is Ritmuller piano? [Re: Norbert] #2106933
06/23/13 08:06 PM
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yamaha dealer quoted me a Cable nelson CN161 for $8800... the price seems to be good, although the sound isn't comparable to ritmuller.

Re: How well built is Ritmuller piano? [Re: zhengy4] #2106950
06/23/13 08:36 PM
06/23/13 08:36 PM
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I wouldn't buy a piano whose sound I didn't like, no matter how good the deal...


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Re: How well built is Ritmuller piano? [Re: terminaldegree] #2106961
06/23/13 09:13 PM
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zhengy4 Offline OP
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but ritmuller is a bit over priced, now I am more inclined to a Kawai with carbon fibre action

Re: How well built is Ritmuller piano? [Re: zhengy4] #2106964
06/23/13 09:22 PM
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Buy what makes you happy, not what you can get a great deal on.


2012 Kawai K3
Re: How well built is Ritmuller piano? [Re: zhengy4] #2106971
06/23/13 09:54 PM
06/23/13 09:54 PM
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Quote
but ritmuller is a bit over priced, now I am more inclined to a Kawai with carbon fibre action


A piano is hardly "overpriced" at 40% off:

List price for Rit 160 R: 17,999 - 40% discount = 10,799

applying same discount for Kawai:

List price for GE30: 25,695 - 40% discount = 15,417

At above prices both pianos would be offering you exact same discount, none would be "overpriced".

Bear in mind that list price is not an indicator of quality as pianos have often very different costs of production.

Especially when rated in same tier of quality - personal reasons and preferences aside - it becomes quickly evident which one of the 2 may actually be the "better buy".

http://www.pianobuyer.com/spring13/45.html

Having said that, I personally think you should go with the Kawai. It's a very nice piano and it has features that clearly seem to appear to appeal to you.

Those choosing Ritmuller are usually attracted to the piano relatively quickly due to its amazing tonal and built quality.

By paying [much]more for a piano within same tier group, many shoppers today demand [and can get..] themselves a piano of still larger size, something which raises the bar of 'comparative shopping' by considerable margin once again.

Good luck in your choice - no 'mistake' here either way!

Norbert smile

Last edited by Norbert; 06/23/13 10:07 PM.

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Re: How well built is Ritmuller piano? [Re: zhengy4] #2106994
06/23/13 10:53 PM
06/23/13 10:53 PM
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Originally Posted by zhengy4
but ritmuller is a bit over priced, now I am more inclined to a Kawai with carbon fibre action


Why do you think it is over priced and why the carbon fiber action?

Jonathan

Re: How well built is Ritmuller piano? [Re: Jonathan Alford] #2106999
06/23/13 11:21 PM
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I've heard that carbon fibre holds almost eternity and don't swell/shrink due to humidity.

Re: How well built is Ritmuller piano? [Re: zhengy4] #2107000
06/23/13 11:28 PM
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Originally Posted by zhengy4
I've heard that carbon fibre holds almost eternity and don't swell/shrink due to humidity.


I am no expert, i think the carbon fiber actions are just fine, but are not the only way to go. I believe Kawai is the only maker using them. That leaves a lot of other mfgs thinking wood is the way to go.

Good luck in finding the right piano for you.

Jonathan

Re: How well built is Ritmuller piano? [Re: zhengy4] #2107018
06/24/13 01:42 AM
06/24/13 01:42 AM
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Quote
I've heard that carbon fibre holds almost eternity and don't swell/shrink due to humidity.


If this were true [and there's nothing wrong with carbon fibre actions..] then Steinway, Fazioli, Bosendorfer, Sauter, Grotrian, Bechstein, Bluethner, Estonia, Yamaha etc would miss out dearly.

It may be an important point in your decision, but it doesn't seem that much for many others.

Norbert smile

Last edited by Norbert; 06/24/13 01:43 AM.

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Re: How well built is Ritmuller piano? [Re: Norbert] #2107043
06/24/13 03:21 AM
06/24/13 03:21 AM
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Originally Posted by Norbert

If this were true [and there's nothing wrong with carbon fibre actions..] then Steinway, Fazioli, Bosendorfer, Sauter, Grotrian, Bechstein, Bluethner, Estonia, Yamaha etc would miss out dearly.


There goes another non-Kawai dealer spreading fear and doubt about carbon-fiber actions. Probably the reason they don't use carbon fiber is bc some people keep spreading lies and those companies calculated those lies might make them lose more in sales then just fixing broken wood hammers.

I try to stay out of these discussions about Chinese pianos because I really do understand the economics of it, and I do think they deserve a place in the market since some people just need to decorate their house or can't afford pianos made in Germany or Japan.

OK, here we go, you asked for it, so let's inject some more fear and doubt into the mix...

I've played a few Chinese pianos and they weren't for me. But regardless, I'm more concerned if the brand will be around in 10+ years.

The Chinese focus on manufacturing. They leave running the company, developing the brand, customer service to the people who hired them. I fear that when the warranty claims start to look ugly they'll just bankrupt that brand and start a new one.

These are the same people that imprison people who disagree with their politics, put poison in their baby food, use lead paint in children's toys to save $$$, dump toxic waste into the rivers and the air, so bad you need a gas mask to walk through the city, and block Google so you can't see pictures of them murdering 100's of students protesting for freedom. So you think they care about their customers or their brand when they don't even care about their citizens?

That's why they hide behind some German name, Ritmuller, who supposedly built something in the 1700's. Even in the 60's when Americans could barely pronounce these Japanese names, Yamaha and Kawai proudly put their family name on their products and stood behind it.

So in a few years when they ditch the Ritmuller label and find another German story, you'll try to sell that piano people will say, "who the heck is Ritmuller?" You'll start to explain, but they won't believe you because they would have taken down their website, and you'll be like, "man, I shoulda' just got that Kawai with the carbon-fiber action."

Full disclaimer, my parents are from China. In our families we have Yamahas and Kawai's and used to have a Wurlitzer. And I'm not in the piano business.


Re: How well built is Ritmuller piano? [Re: BornInTheUSA] #2107135
06/24/13 10:15 AM
06/24/13 10:15 AM
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Originally Posted by michaelh
Originally Posted by Norbert

If this were true [and there's nothing wrong with carbon fibre actions..] then Steinway, Fazioli, Bosendorfer, Sauter, Grotrian, Bechstein, Bluethner, Estonia, Yamaha etc would miss out dearly.


There goes another non-Kawai dealer spreading fear and doubt about carbon-fiber actions.

Um, how does the statement "there's nothing wrong with carbon fibre actions" spread fear and doubt about carbon-fiber actions?

-Andy

Re: How well built is Ritmuller piano? [Re: zhengy4] #2107140
06/24/13 10:52 AM
06/24/13 10:52 AM
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I don't know how well built it is but I know that a conservatoire bought 10-15 of them and all of them had serious mechanic issues after several months. The issues annoyed the staff and they returned the instruments.

If you are looking for a cheaper piano than Yamaha and Kawai, check out young&chang. the conservatoire where I studied bought dozens of Young&Changs and majority of them survived after 25 year of massive practising. A few of them which were used less are still in surprisingly good condition. They sound fine and no mechanism issues. The most annoying problem you get in a Young&Chang is the strings on the higher octaves, they occasionally break if the piano is 7-10 years old. I used to be a nerd, practised a lot and at home, I practised on an upright 21 year-old Young&Chang, the instrument now sounds bad but still playable. No mechanism issues.





Ozgur Unaldi, pianist
Re: How well built is Ritmuller piano? [Re: zhengy4] #2107148
06/24/13 11:13 AM
06/24/13 11:13 AM
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It's not "spreading fear" but the constant claim of 'superiority' by those companies doing it.

With own agenda on mind....

Carbon fibre actions are well made actions, nobody's taking a swing at that.

However the claim that these actions are 'superior' to others and will be "lasting longer" is completely unproven.

For one, not enough time has gone by to make such assessment.

Also, by same logic, all other makers including Steinway now would be using inferior actions in their own pianos.

Actions which in many cases have lasted 100 years.

Using the carbon action argument "for" or "against" one's own make IMHO is not only wrong but uncalled for.

We as dealers for Ritmuller and several other makes have never done this - nor "would"

Kindly advice if this is a problem.

Norbert smile

Last edited by Norbert; 06/24/13 02:13 PM.

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Re: How well built is Ritmuller piano? [Re: AndyJ] #2107241
06/24/13 02:25 PM
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Originally Posted by AndyJ
Originally Posted by michaelh
Originally Posted by Norbert

If this were true [and there's nothing wrong with carbon fibre actions..] then Steinway, Fazioli, Bosendorfer, Sauter, Grotrian, Bechstein, Bluethner, Estonia, Yamaha etc would miss out dearly.


There goes another non-Kawai dealer spreading fear and doubt about carbon-fiber actions.

Um, how does the statement "there's nothing wrong with carbon fibre actions" spread fear and doubt about carbon-fiber actions?

-Andy


He went back and edited that in.

Re: How well built is Ritmuller piano? [Re: zhengy4] #2107257
06/24/13 02:52 PM
06/24/13 02:52 PM
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Michaelh:

You're fairly new here and the proud owner of a nice Kawai - congratulations! thumb

At same time, would you kindly advice what the point of your posts are?

I already told OP to go get the Kawai, thinking it's the right one for him.

However, OP seemed to have based his preference for the Kawai on something that is not proven and considered by many untrue.

Doubting the information came from his mail man....

If you have any evidence that would support the claim that carbon fibre actions are superior outlasting traditional ones, it would be nice for you to demonstrate this for us somehow.

Perhaps you have some information nobody else has access to?

Don't forget, we're all here to share.

Thanks in advance!

Norbert smile

Last edited by Norbert; 06/24/13 02:53 PM.

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Re: How well built is Ritmuller piano? [Re: zhengy4] #2107267
06/24/13 03:04 PM
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Here's Kawai's claims. http://www.kawaius.com/main_links/grands_09/ABS/carbon_fiber-tech.html

We don't need to sit around and wait for 100 years to prove which material is stronger, lighter, or more durable. Similar to your other argument that if other makers aren't doing it than it must be xyz... All completely circular and based on faulty logic. If we had to sit around for generations to test drugs many of us would be limping around with polio.

They used wood 100+ years ago because that's what was available. And because most people think the entire piano contributes to its tone they eek when they hear carbon fiber is used anywhere. But as all of you know, the keys have no tonal quality, and neither does the cabinet that's vaneered with some fancy wood.

My mom bought a Yamaha C3-BB, with African Bubinga wood. She thought the whole piano was made from Bubinga because the sly salesman made her believe that. I told her, there's about 1/16 of an inch of Bubinga veneered onto the same wood that's in the polished ebonies and she wouldn't believe me. I don't know the density of bubinga but maybe it would snap at the pressure or be heavy as lead, and of course it would be ridiculously expensive.

Anyway, my point is most piano shoppers are pretty unsophisticated making them fresh meat for certain piano salesmen that have less integrity.

The cabinet might as well be made out of acrylic like Kawai's Crystal Piano: http://www.kendavismusic.com/html/Piano_photogallery.html, if that fits your taste and budget.

But most people have no idea which part does what, I really didn't either before I began my recent piano search, but I can be reasoned with. But some, perhaps the majority of people can't, and are vulnerable to the "plastic in piano" fear mongering. Heck, let's put wood back in our cars, maybe a wooden steering column or wooden drive axle.

So to use your 100 year basically unprovable test, but I'll be a bit more reasonable, and it used to be 30 years until Kawai met that and beat it by 10 (they've been using it for 40 years)
http://www.kawaius.com/main_links/articles/abs_40th.html - and info about the problems they (and all piano makers) have with wood actions. Let's see where "Ritmuller" is in 10 years.

Last edited by michaelh; 06/24/13 03:07 PM. Reason: (typo "less integrity")
Re: How well built is Ritmuller piano? [Re: zhengy4] #2107276
06/24/13 03:20 PM
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Hey Norbert,

I have no agenda that links to my finances. I'm not in the piano business, I'm just reading the forums here for infotainment.

But I also think this forum has some serious problems since many of the posters are piano salesmen and make unfair remarks against pianos they don't currently sell.

During my piano search I encountered a lot of salesman that used subjective claims to against products they didn't sell and if you want my advice, I would steer clear of that because it really discredits you.

I did encounter several salesmen that did have a lot of integrity. They steered away from the cheap shots, praised their competitors when warranted (since many carry them used as well), stuck with the facts, and focused on finding a piano that fit my personal tastes. After all, that's what it's all about.


Re: How well built is Ritmuller piano? [Re: zhengy4] #2107295
06/24/13 03:56 PM
06/24/13 03:56 PM
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What is the advantage of the carbon fiber action?? Good question. It's not that it will last longer. There are plenty of pianos with wood actions that are more than a century old. Of course the felt and leather in those actions is either long gone or long ago replaced. Kawai makes a lot of noise about the carbon infused ABS not absorbing humidity and thus it doesn't swell and contract with the weather. So once well regulated it will stay regulated longer, but the felt in a Kawai action won't last any longer than the felt in any other action. I seem recall hearing that since Kawai introduced plastic actions 40 years ago no plastic part has failed. That strikes me as a pretty good track record.

As for what the OP should do? Buy the piano that sounds and plays better and is the best value for his budget. There will always be something a little better for more money available at any price point. I suggest the OP just bite the bullet and buy an RX2 or better yet GX-2.

Last edited by Steve Chandler; 06/24/13 03:58 PM.
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