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What is most important about that book was not what was in in it but what it deliberately left out! That was the infinitely large gap between 1/4 Comma Meantone (which was basically laughed at as being thoroughly useless) and the supposed ideal of the glorious ET! Complete freedom of modulation! AH! Each pitch unequivocally equidistant from the other! AH! The "Final Solution" AH!
If you had actually read the book, you would know that he recommended tuning meantone and described it as "very useful," not "thoroughly useless": The meantone system gives a "sweet" and harmonious effect for nearly all keys, with 16 tones to the octave, although of course this number still lacks 11 tones to make it quite adequate. However, even with 12 tones to the octave, an experiment in meantone temperament can be tried, and will sound very attractive so long as one keeps within the range of keys allowable. [...] This is a very useful experiment and if tried out carefully will enable the student to play old music in the tuning for which it was intended; an experience sometimes most illuminating and delightful.
And this is what he had to say about ET: So long, of course, as the manufacture of pianos and organs is stressed rather on its industrial than on its artistic side we shall probably have to remain content with Equal Temperament. But it might as well be observed that if the piano and organ were out of the way, music throughout the world would be on some basis of tuning other than Equal Temperament within ten years. [...] tuners could do something to prepare the world for a better system if they wished to; and if they knew that improvement is actually possible. What we need is to realize that the Equal Temperament is a purely artificial system resting upon a consent gained rather on account of the absolute necessity for the piano having it than for any fundamental musical reason. To get something better we need a method which will either (1) allow more strings to the octave or (2) will give us a mechanism capable of making instant changes as required in the pitch of given strings, so that modulation may be as facile as it is now.
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Mwm, my thoughts -
I am not a tuner and I don't know how the temperaments you mentioned would sound even if based on C. The temperament which was used was EBVT-III. I will not conjecture on that which I have no experience.
There is no Mozart Piano Concerto Op. 5, No. 4. in Eb. The Mozart Piano Concerto No. 5, K 175, is in D Major. The Mozart piano concertos in Eb Major are; Nos. 9, 10 (two pianos), 14, and 22.
There is absolutely nothing unpleasant or overly dissonant when playing in D Major or Eb Major. Though, they do sound different at the keyboard than EBTV-III based on C, but that transfers to what one hears when listening to recorded performances of these concertos performed with fine chamber orchestras. The sense of key color, and where the tonal structure leads the ear, are the same. That is exactly the point.
Have you tried it, or are you trying to imagine it theoretically?
Marty in Minnesota
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Based on C
That said older music I (mean before Internet) is played with A=415 Hz , half a tone lower.
We perform French Baroque music at A=392 Hz. And Italian early baroque a minor third higher. Kees If I remember correctly, the organ at Peterborough Cathedral is tuned a quarter tone above 440 Hz. The quire rehearses at 440, then processes to the Cathedral to sing more brightly!
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Mwm, my thoughts -
I am not a tuner and I don't know how the temperaments you mentioned would sound even if based on C. The temperament which was used was EBVT-III. I will not conjecture on that which I have no experience.
There is no Mozart Piano Concerto Op. 5, No. 4. in Eb. The Mozart Piano Concerto No. 5, K 175, is in D Major. The Mozart piano concertos in Eb Major are; Nos. 9, 10 (two pianos), 14, and 22.
There is absolutely nothing unpleasant or overly dissonant when playing in D Major or Eb Major. Though, they do sound different at the keyboard than EBTV-III based on C, but that transfers to what one hears when listening to recorded performances of these concertos performed with fine chamber orchestras. The sense of key color, and where the tonal structure leads the ear, are the same. That is exactly the point.
Have you tried it, or are you trying to imagine it theoretically?
I was thinking of K. 107, the third one in E flat Major. I haven't tried tuning a UT based on A, only C. All the UTs I have tuned are not even close to EVBT III, and have thirds beating upwards of 21 bps in the far keys, which would include E flat, if A was the tonal base. I can accept that EVBT III might sound fine based on A, though I don't see the point, since orchestral members, if they are world class, play in just intonation, so the whole point of temperament is moot.
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I notice that Loren has thrown out the morsel of food, and let us scrap for it. Interesting.
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The UT movement is like any other religious movement. There are the one or two extremely knowledgeable high priests,
Then the enthusiastic followers, many of whom start proselytising before they know much about it and do the movement much harm when they attempt to explain it. They often simply appear as fools to anyone with the knowledge but is not a believer.
Some become heretics and, while appearing to abide by the basic tenets, start to extrapolate and make up their own interpretations which often make a nonsense of the central idea.
Then there are the lunatic fringe who will drop bombs on infidels and unbelievers often at the expense of their own credibility. The list goes on.....
Me? I'm a non practicing believer.
Amanda Reckonwith Concert & Recording tuner-tech, London, England. "in theory, practice and theory are the same thing. In practice, they're not." - Lawrence P. 'Yogi' Berra.
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Well Mark R., that means that you heard "such a notion" here first. Congratulations!
In all five of your provincial orchestras, to what note did you tune?
That is the choice I made with my own piano. It works well. Our pitch reference was, of course, G## at 439.947 Hz (give or take 1.273 Hz, but always adding 0.026 Hz for Beethoven overtures on rainy days). Oh, and for some weird reason, some of the brass always tuned to C bb... Feeble attempts at humor aside, we both know that orchestras tune to concert A of whichever definition. There was really no need to ask. That aside, I don't see that pitch reference has anything to do with choice or center of temperament - especially on non-fixed-pitch instruments. In my orchestras, anyway, any discussion of tempered intervals was pretty much a non-flier. When I pleaded for tuning open strings to somewhat narrow fifths in the violas and celli, in order to avoid an overly wide third between our C-strings and the violins' E-strings, and when I demonstrated that I could significantly raise my C-string (C3) by tuning ever-so-slightly narrower but still non-beating fifths from A4 to D4 to G3 to C3, I just received blank stares... By insisting on their pure fifths, often tuned from the wide side, the violists and cellists were effectively creating a reverse well, and made perplexed faces when the open strings (especially as roots of major chords) sounded horribly flat during play...
Autodidact interested in piano technology. 1970 44" Ibach, daily music maker. 1977 "Ortega" 8' + 8' harpsichord (Rainer Schütze, Heidelberg)
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Last time I asked the 5ths where not tuned pure at the violin, anyway for the soloist.
Professional of the profession. Foo Foo specialist I wish to add some kind and sensitive phrase but nothing comes to mind.!
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I notice that Loren has thrown out the morsel of food, and let us scrap for it. Interesting. Loren has a life! I've been here long enough for people to know that I post infrequently as time allows. I've commented several times on this thread.
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The only reason for using A as the tuning note is that all orchestral string instruments have an A string in a range convenient for tuning. It could almost as easily be a D or a G but they don't because the higher strings on an instrument are clearer sounding for pitch definition. (bass players often use the 3rd partial of their D string).
This convenient convention is just what it is. Strings don't use a temperament as such and have no requirement for a tonal centre in the quite the same way a fixed pitch instrument in an unequal temperament does. Bb transposing instruments sound their B, Eb instruments need to use f#. They don't make those notes their tonal centre. Wouldn't even dream of it.
Mark R., the string players I have conversed with about this do contract their 5ths very slightly. Maybe the seeds you have sown are now flowering down the generations. .
Last edited by rxd; 06/18/13 09:18 AM.
Amanda Reckonwith Concert & Recording tuner-tech, London, England. "in theory, practice and theory are the same thing. In practice, they're not." - Lawrence P. 'Yogi' Berra.
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OK Good. We have now all agreed that orchestras tune to A, of whatever pitch. Phew!
My question remains, why not set a non-equal temperament from A rather than C? (Those who believe that ET is a gift from God, need not respond to this question.) There seems to be much resistance to this concept, but all of the replies have been theoretical, rather than actual. Ya know, actually playing the piano.
I have a series of rehearsals and performances approaching of the Poulenc Sextet. I am considering having my piano tuned with Bb as the temperament center. If this is successful, the primary performance piano could likewise be tuned. Thoughts?
Marty in Minnesota
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OK Good. We have now all agreed that orchestras tune to A, of whatever pitch. Phew!
My question remains, why not set a non-equal temperament from A rather than C? (Those who believe that ET is a gift from God, need not respond to this question.) There seems to be much resistance to this concept, but all of the replies have been theoretical, rather than actual. Ya know, actually playing the piano.
I have a series of rehearsals and performances approaching of the Poulenc Sextet. I am considering having my piano tuned with Bb as the temperament center. If this is successful, the primary performance piano could likewise be tuned. Thoughts? Unfortunately, for me, that scenario is hypothetical, so I can't comment. Are you going to use EVBT III? Let us know what the interaction with the ensemble is like. My experience is with temperaments with a strong wolf, though I have played the WTC even with the wolf, and, while the sound is quite unusual, I don't mind it because of the huge colour shift, and the fact, if you will, that Bach was aware of the colours and used them to his advantage in the way in which he wrote each prelude in particular. Ok, I looked at the Poulenc. It is very tonal, heavily biased toward B Flat, F, and D flat, with the odd momentary excursion to distant tonalities. My opinion is that it would work extremely well in even a strong UT, much better that ET. GO FOR IT!
Last edited by Mwm; 06/18/13 11:40 AM.
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[quote=Minnesota Marty]
My question remains, why not set a non-equal temperament from A rather than C? There seems to be much resistance to this concept, but all of the replies have been theoretical, rather than actual. Ya know, actually playing the piano. /quote]
Greetings, It would alter piano music that was composed under the influence of the WT's between 1700 and 1850 or so. The tonal center of C was so common that tuning a WT so that the center was shifted to A, making the A-C# third the smallest, puts everything three harmonic steps away from the commonly expected placement. Nothing wrong with having the center elsewhere, per se, but don't expect the modulations to be helped by the normal resolution into consonance.
Shifting between Vallotti and Young is fairly simple, and I have rarely had anyone notice one was not the other, but the difference there is only one step, and most modulatons behave as expected. REgards,
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MWM, I totally agree with you about composers selecting keys for their tonal color. For the vast history of Western music, ET just didn't exist. It's a Johnny-come-lately. Using Bach or Mozart as examples, since both were certainly familiar with writing for strings, should we make the assumption that "well" temperament was based on middle C? I'm doing an experiment since I have different instruments available to give it a try.
Using EBVT is undecided. That will be a discussion with the tuners. For clarity, the pianos are in three different locations and each has a different tuner.
Marty in Minnesota
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Did you see my edit. A strong UT based on B flat would be very wonderful.
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... I have a series of rehearsals and performances approaching of the Poulenc Sextet. I am considering having my piano tuned with Bb as the temperament center. If this is successful, the primary performance piano could likewise be tuned. Thoughts? Perhaps this is a question I should not ask if I don't know the answer, but do you mean replacing C with Bb (and so on) in the circle of fifths? When you come to a composition for the piano in C, do you play it in C or Bb? Poulenc aside, what about the composer's notions of colour, consonance and dissonance?
Last edited by Withindale; 06/18/13 11:59 AM.
Ian Russell Schiedmayer & Soehne, 1925 Model 14, 140cm Ibach, 1905 F-IV, 235cm
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... I have a series of rehearsals and performances approaching of the Poulenc Sextet. I am considering having my piano tuned with Bb as the temperament center. If this is successful, the primary performance piano could likewise be tuned. Thoughts? Perhaps this is a question I should not ask if I don't know the answer, but do you mean replacing C with Bb (and so on) in the circle of fifths? When you come to a composition for the piano in C, do you play it in C or Bb? Poulenc aside, what about the composer's notions of colour, consonance and dissonance? In this particular case, I would argue that the colour, consonance and dissonance would be enhanced by shifting the temperament base to B flat. If we keep in mind that the wind players prefer to be playing, to the extent possible, in just intonation, having the purest keys based on B flat would make that job more easy.
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Nothing wrong with having the center elsewhere, per se, but don't expect the modulations to be helped by the normal resolution into consonance. Thanks Ed. That is exactly what I am hearing. The difference in the "pull" toward resolution is exactly what I find so intriguing. I have used playing in G-Major as an example. It is used so commonly in the Baroque and Classical eras for keyboard composition, and this temperament center, on keyboard, causes it to be much "brighter" than is usually heard. There is much more tension leading to consonance/resolution, also. I used chamber orchestra performance as an example, as the piano seems to match more closely the juxtaposition and intonation of intervals as is heard in a fine ensemble. The important factor, as always, is that there is no "just" temperament employed in instrumental or vocal performance. Pitch is constantly fluid and "temperament" is ever changing. Vocalists and instrumentalists are not taught "temperament" to be employed in performance. Key color is stressed. One learns to hear, and implement, the difference between C-Major and E b-Major, as example. Temperament is a concept learned in Musicology classes, not in the teaching studios.
Marty in Minnesota
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Nothing wrong with having the center elsewhere, per se, but don't expect the modulations to be helped by the normal resolution into consonance. Thanks Ed. That is exactly what I am hearing. The difference in the "pull" toward resolution is exactly what I find so intriguing. I have used playing in G-Major as an example. It is used so commonly in the Baroque and Classical eras for keyboard composition, and this temperament center, on keyboard, causes it to be much "brighter" than is usually heard. There is much more tension leading to consonance/resolution, also. I used chamber orchestra performance as an example, as the piano seems to match more closely the juxtaposition and intonation of intervals as is heard in a fine ensemble. The important factor, as always, is that there is no "just" temperament employed in instrumental or vocal performance. Pitch is constantly fluid and "temperament" is ever changing. Vocalists and instrumentalists are not taught "temperament" to be employed in performance. Key color is stressed. One learns to hear, and implement, the difference between C-Major and E b-Major, as example. Temperament is a concept learned in Musicology classes, not in the teaching studios. Marty, the tonal centre, when playing or singing in just intonation is always shifting. I guess you could call that the temperament shifting, but I prefer to think of it as a leaning toward thenew key.
Last edited by Mwm; 06/18/13 12:11 PM.
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Perhaps this is a question I should not ask if I don't know the answer, but do you mean replacing C with Bb (and so on) in the circle of fifths? The circle of fifths is the circle of fifths. All I'm suggesting is placing the temperament center on B b. Wind ensembles tune to B b rather than A. It is with that understand that I would like to try the keyboard temperament based on B b. When you come to a composition for the piano in C, do you play it in C or Bb? In C. Why would I transpose it? Poulenc aside, what about the composer's notions of colour, consonance and dissonance? That is exactly what I am trying to explore.
Marty in Minnesota
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