Piano World Home Page Forums Our Most Popular Forums Piano Forum Steinway D - in apology and response to another post...

Wow. That brought a few out of the woodwork there. Point taken, gentlemen, partially a cultural difference in the strength of the word 'rant'.

This is also the very problem with radio call in shows. Anybody with the necessary patience can get on a talk show and sound off, thinking they've achieved something by talking. Raised awareness? Among whom?.

The fact remains that some other poor sod is going to struggle with that piano, possibly tonight. (assuming it is the resident piano there). Do pianists have no concern for their brethren?

A piano can be serviced to the hilt but when it is hit with moisture like that, this is what happens. There is a cure, albeit temporary, it costs the price of a beer and takes a few seconds and it will get a piano through that open air summer concert by the lake after a thunderstorm with no lasting side effects when the show simply must go on. A product available at any corner store. Anybody remember it? I last resorted to it some years ago when CPL wouldnt cut it. In a cathedral, funnily enough, in a very similar situation. Works like magic. Stinks, though.

Never, ever, confuse Vic's VapoRub with K-Y.

He had to play on a $100,000.00 plus piano and was disappointed.

Oh, the horror! When I think of some of pianos I've had to play on over the years, this sounds a bit silly.

Roger, the price of the piano is not really the issue. The preparation of the piano is. A Steinway D is generally a good piano, but this one has been neglected.

My recital was part of a concert series, but usually the recitals are not featuring piano - which I think is rather odd considering they have this potentially magnificent instrument. The piano is used by the associate organist for training the choir. The piano was bought by a generous donor who wanted to make a gift in memory of someone.

I told the associate organist that they really should have the piano serviced. In fact I might mention to Steinway Hall who sold them the piano, and Steinway Hall might offer them some kind of service plan. Perhaps that's not the ideal situation cost wise, but it will ensure the piano is cared for at least. I know the people at Steinway Hall quite well, so I will mention it.

And Roger, I've played on some horrible pianos too, given recitals on church hall straight-strung uprights, played concertos on upright pianos with cracked frames and no sound, and really I can't refuse to play the instrument in the venue at this stage, because I have to do the gig and be paid. It's not good to rock the boat by NOT playing. The disappointment here wasn't that the piano is fundamentally bad. No, rather, it's that the piano is fundamentally good (potentially the best) and they've allowed it to morph into something that is altogether unsatisfactory. I'm sure they have it tuned twice a year or three times a year or whatever, but I would hazard a guess that the action hasn't been out of the piano since it was delivered. I agree with Norbert, it's not the piano's fault, it's not Steinway's fault, it's the fact that these instruments NEED to be serviced, and DESERVE to be serviced. People need to have respect for their instruments, especially when they have a £120,000 price tag (I think that's almost $190,000US)

While this is true there's more to the story.

"Price tag" should not by itself be an indicator of how much service a customer "deserves"

Someone who buys a piano at the fraction of the cost of the above "deserves" IMHO as much good service as someone who pays many times that.

And when this person ends up with a piano as good or better than the one of much higher cost, good for him/her.

And for the dealer...

This is where I see the challenge but also opportunity of the market for today's cost-conscious buyers, both in lower and higher spectrum of market.

Thinking that spending super dollars for relatively mediocre sounding pianos is not something that can be sustained on ongoing basis in future....

Norbert

Norbert, I completely agree with you but I think you might have got the wrong end of the stick there.

I was speaking about people who have already bought pianos that are now outwith their guarantee period, or even within their guarantee period, but that neglect to have their instruments serviced. As in, I mean the instruments deserve to be serviced. I mean all instruments of course, but you would think that when someone has paid 120k they might have more respect.

Of course when buying a piano, the dealer should give excellent service regardless of the price of the instrument. I understand that certain instruments have a retail price that don't support as much preparation as others, but I don't think that's what either of us are talking about here.

Humidity can indeed create havoc in pianos. In addition to the swelling of the cloth and felt, making the action sluggish and the hammers heavier, the increased moisture swells the soundboard.

In mild cases the only noticeable change is the rise in pitch as the board /bridge swells under the strings. In dramatic cases the board swells enough to increase the bearing (angle of the strings over the bridge) to effectively trap the soundboard, limiting it's movement. This causes a loss of sustain especially in the first treble section. This loss of sustain and volume can be mistaken for a voicing issue and is often incorrectly diagnosed as hammers that are too soft. The resultant hardening of hammers only decreases the sustain.

This problem is pervasive in the summer in cooler climates where it is not cold enough for heat and not warm enough for air-conditioning. The humidity just rises, especially overnight.

I encourage customers to note the humidity with a hygrometer. The digital ones that can track the rise of humidity overnight are especially helpful so that the customer can see the problem.

Well Said !!

I am wondering what the rate is for the humidity getting into the piano soundboard. Say, if the humidity goes up over night in the house, what is the rate of moisture ingress? I would guess that there is a bit of a lag.

I'm also wondering if anyone has measured any pitch change over night as in the above scenario give by Ms. Phillips.

I am looking at the wood moisture curves in the Steinway Service Manual (Matthias, 1990) that shows even if the relative humidity remains constant, and the temperature goes down (as it does at night) wood moisture % is going up a bit too.

Some good T and RH loggers (one of many models in product lines):

http://www.lascarelectronics.com/temperaturedatalogger.php?datalogger=375

http://www.onsetcomp.com/products/data-loggers/u12-011

Some of them connect by wifi, and some models send you a text message or email when the reading goes out of some limit.

http://www.onsetcomp.com/corporate/...less-temperature-humidity-monitoring-kit

Regards -

The rate of increase in moisture content of wood varies by species, specific sample, thickness and surface finish treatments. A rule of thumb guide is that softwoods, (spruce is a softwood), take on moisture about five times faster than they give moisture out to the air. Thus protecting a piano from spikes in humidity is more important than spikes in dryness. The same is generally true for felt although the number may be more than five times I don't have it available right now.

Techs who service concert grands will tell you that it is not unusual for a piano to change anywhere from a few cents to several cycles per second overnight in high humidity situations, especially after a move into new venue. Outside venues are a nightmare. HVAC systems bring in outside air so on rainy days the humidity increases enough to move a piano sharp enough that it has to be retuned.

Recording studios are usually a lot more stable but concert halls where the piano is being moved from backstage in the dark to onstage under lights will make an audible difference. Churches are notorious for slacking off on HVAC during the week between services. This is the reason that pianos have to be tuned repeatedly
even though it might not sound out of tune to the average ear. It moves sharp or flat with itself in general but is 440.89 or 439.10 as an example. Pianos move sharp faster than flat.

I just had a D in a private home this past week that the customer was trying to use for recording The daytime humidity reading was around 52% but the overnight went up to over 70%. Before the days of high tech evidence you would know that humidity was the problem when you tried to slide the music desk out and it stuck. In this case the owner was just looking at his hygrometer during the day and was unaware of the nighttime spikes. In this case the tone was suffering horribly as well.

A pooly regulated action is going to suck to the person doing the playing, no MATTER if it is a Steinway or a Bosendorfer. It could be that the dampers are pooly timed(amoung other problems). But my point is, NO piano is going to "sing", if it's not regulated properly

Thanks for your feedback, Mr. McMorrow and Ms. Phillips. This all makes sense and is helpful to know.

I have seen studies about the rate at which spruce draws in water when put in a bucket of water (which I would imagine is a different situation), and I have seen studies where spruce and other woods are used to dampen relative humidity changes in a room (sucking it up when the humidity rises, and giving it back when the ambient falls). If I come across directly useful data, I will post.

All the best-