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the issue of KAWAI K series key surface turn to red #2103671
06/17/13 04:09 AM
06/17/13 04:09 AM
Joined: May 2010
Posts: 188
yichang city china mainland
chen Offline OP
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Posts: 188
yichang city china mainland
recently ,we have received several feedback from KAWAI upright piano's costumer.they had bought K 5 and K6 K8 several months ,now they found their piano's key surface 's color turn to red ,a lot of red finger print on key surface.

we found this phenomenon before ,but not so fast ,this time ,just half year turn to red.

K5 K6 K7 K8's keysurface use the NEOTEX tech, NEOTEX will have chemical reaction with sweat.but just a few people's sweat will react with it,may be 1/10000.

now ,KAWAI company still now find the reason and no way to solve this problem.

some engineer here can to analyze it ,and give the answer to solve the problem.

thanks!!!

Last edited by chen; 06/17/13 04:10 AM.

http://www.parsonsmusic.com/ www.kawaiyc.com http://www.yangtzeriver-pianos.com/

We produce and sell KAWAI Yangtzeriver Wilh.Steinberg Ronisch Brodmann Schonbrunn
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Re: the issue of KAWAI K series key surface turn to red [Re: chen] #2103723
06/17/13 08:05 AM
06/17/13 08:05 AM
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 12,421
Georgia, USA
Rickster Offline
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Originally Posted by chen
recently ,we have received several feedback from KAWAI upright piano's costumer.they had bought K 5 and K6 K8 several months ,now they found their piano's key surface 's color turn to red ,a lot of red finger print on key surface.

we found this phenomenon before ,but not so fast ,this time ,just half year turn to red.

K5 K6 K7 K8's keysurface use the NEOTEX tech, NEOTEX will have chemical reaction with sweat.but just a few people's sweat will react with it,may be 1/10000.

now ,KAWAI company still now find the reason and no way to solve this problem.

some engineer here can to analyze it ,and give the answer to solve the problem.

thanks!!!


Hi Chen,

I was just wondering, it seems to me that Neotex key tops have been around a fairly long time (haven’t they?)… I wonder why this issue has not come up before?

Is this considered a defect in materials (for some piano owners with certain DNA)? Are the key-tops in question being replaced under warranty?

I wonder what Kawai Don would have to say about this…

Rick


Piano enthusiast and amateur musician: "Treat others the way you would like to be treated". Yamaha C7. YouTube Channel
Re: the issue of KAWAI K series key surface turn to red [Re: chen] #2103726
06/17/13 08:12 AM
06/17/13 08:12 AM
Joined: Feb 2013
Posts: 373
Michigan, USA
Schubertslieder Offline
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Originally Posted by chen

K5 K6 K7 K8's keysurface use the NEOTEX tech, NEOTEX will have chemical reaction with sweat.but just a few people's sweat will react with it,may be 1/10000.

now ,KAWAI company still now find the reason and no way to solve this problem.

some engineer here can to analyze it ,and give the answer to solve the problem.

thanks!!!

If you are looking for engineers here on PW, there may or may not be engineers who can solve this problem for you. I wondered if you tried contacting the Kawai company with this issue. I also wondered if Kawai company has engineers on their staff who can better assist you.

If you have already tried Kawai company engineers and they were unable to assist you, I wondered if you can actually find the answers you are looking for here on PW


Charles Peck (American)--Metropolitan
Debussy--various pieces
Grieg--various pieces
Re: the issue of KAWAI K series key surface turn to red [Re: chen] #2103746
06/17/13 09:32 AM
06/17/13 09:32 AM
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 3,440
Urbandale, Iowa
S
Steve Chandler Online content
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Posts: 3,440
Urbandale, Iowa
I would tell anyone who's keytops turn red to stop practicing until their fingertips bleed. wink

Last edited by Steve Chandler; 06/17/13 09:34 AM.
Re: the issue of KAWAI K series key surface turn to red [Re: chen] #2103757
06/17/13 10:03 AM
06/17/13 10:03 AM
Joined: May 2013
Posts: 68
Midwest
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pianocritic Offline
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Midwest
Kawai should correct the problem. If not, poor customer service on their part.


Piano Critic-A player and listener. Musician-Bachelors and Masters in Music. Retired from Professional life and just enjoying Music.
Re: the issue of KAWAI K series key surface turn to red [Re: pianocritic] #2103783
06/17/13 11:03 AM
06/17/13 11:03 AM
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 4,822
Georgia, USA
terminaldegree Offline
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Originally Posted by pianocritic
Kawai should correct the problem.


Specifics of this issue aside, perhaps you should change your screen name to "kawaicritic" based on your posts here...


Pianist, teacher, apprentice technician, internet addict.
Piano Review Editor - Acoustic and Digital Piano Buyer
Re: the issue of KAWAI K series key surface turn to red [Re: chen] #2103792
06/17/13 11:19 AM
06/17/13 11:19 AM
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 3,742
Atlanta, GA
PianoWorksATL Offline
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Atlanta, GA
chen, look to see what these customers have in common besides the keytops, like using hand lotion before playing. I haven't seen this in red, but I have seen this in other shades where the customer would wash their hands and then apply lotion immediately before playing.

This is more likely than red fingerprints being a sweat reaction to an inert material.


Sam Bennett
PianoWorks - Atlanta Piano Dealer
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Re: the issue of KAWAI K series key surface turn to red [Re: chen] #2103837
06/17/13 12:58 PM
06/17/13 12:58 PM
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 197
Skokie, IL
G
Grand Piano Haus Offline
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Skokie, IL
Originally Posted by chen
recently ,we have received several feedback from KAWAI upright piano's costumer.they had bought K 5 and K6 K8 several months ,now they found their piano's key surface 's color turn to red ,a lot of red finger print on key surface.

we found this phenomenon before ,but not so fast ,this time ,just half year turn to red.

K5 K6 K7 K8's keysurface use the NEOTEX tech, NEOTEX will have chemical reaction with sweat.but just a few people's sweat will react with it,may be 1/10000.

now ,KAWAI company still now find the reason and no way to solve this problem.

some engineer here can to analyze it ,and give the answer to solve the problem.

thanks!!!


When I was a Kawai dealer, we had an older RX-A (Fully hand-crafted RX, basically a smaller version of an EX)with the same problem that you are explaining. At that time I personally asked one of Kawai's Master Piano Artisan (Otake-San) about how one can remove this reddish hue displaying on the keytops of where one touches the keys. He told me that it would be very difficult to fully remove. The only way is to replace the keytops.


Jeff
Grand Piano Haus

Last edited by Grand Piano Haus; 06/17/13 06:26 PM.

We proudly represent: Yamaha, Bösendorfer, Steingraeber & Söhne, Kayserburg, Ritmüller, Pearl River, CEUS, Disklavier Enspire, AvantGrand, Clavinova, & Live-Performance model-LX http://www.GrandPianoHaus.com.
Re: the issue of KAWAI K series key surface turn to red [Re: Grand Piano Haus] #2103949
06/17/13 04:45 PM
06/17/13 04:45 PM
Joined: Sep 2012
Posts: 225
Near Dayton, Ohio USA
A
AndyJ Offline
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Originally Posted by Grand Piano Haus
...one of Kawai's Master Piano Artesian


Hi Jeff,

In the interest of our Chinese friend's comprehension, you might want to correct that word to "artisan". Unless Otake-San is in fact a spring that shoots a stream of water into the air, of course!

Andy

Re: the issue of KAWAI K series key surface turn to red [Re: AndyJ] #2103992
06/17/13 06:28 PM
06/17/13 06:28 PM
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 197
Skokie, IL
G
Grand Piano Haus Offline
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Skokie, IL
Originally Posted by AndyJ
Originally Posted by Grand Piano Haus
...one of Kawai's Master Piano Artesian


Hi Jeff,

In the interest of our Chinese friend's comprehension, you might want to correct that word to "artisan". Unless Otake-San is in fact a spring that shoots a stream of water into the air, of course!

Andy


Yes, we do not want that to happen.

Thanks for letting me know..

Last edited by Grand Piano Haus; 06/17/13 06:31 PM.

We proudly represent: Yamaha, Bösendorfer, Steingraeber & Söhne, Kayserburg, Ritmüller, Pearl River, CEUS, Disklavier Enspire, AvantGrand, Clavinova, & Live-Performance model-LX http://www.GrandPianoHaus.com.
Re: the issue of KAWAI K series key surface turn to red [Re: chen] #2104003
06/17/13 06:53 PM
06/17/13 06:53 PM
Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 2,626
Philadelphia area
D
Dave B Offline
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Joined: Aug 2011
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Philadelphia area
I would replace the key tops.


"Imagine it in all its primatic colorings, its counterpart in our souls - our souls that are great pianos whose strings, of honey and of steel, the divisions of the rainbow set twanging, loosing on the air great novels of adventure!" - William Carlos Williams
Re: the issue of KAWAI K series key surface turn to red [Re: terminaldegree] #2104060
06/17/13 09:18 PM
06/17/13 09:18 PM
Joined: May 2013
Posts: 68
Midwest
P
pianocritic Offline
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Midwest
A manufacture worth their salt would want to fix the problem whether it be Kawai, Yamaha, Young Chang or any other manufacture. Having owned several retail stores in varies commodities I guarantee any manufacture would not want that type of advertisement on a major forum.


Piano Critic-A player and listener. Musician-Bachelors and Masters in Music. Retired from Professional life and just enjoying Music.
Re: the issue of KAWAI K series key surface turn to red [Re: Rickster] #2104088
06/17/13 10:23 PM
06/17/13 10:23 PM
Joined: May 2010
Posts: 188
yichang city china mainland
chen Offline OP
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Posts: 188
yichang city china mainland
we found this problem long ago.but rarely,and happened after several years by used .so we are not make much account of it.

recently,we found several events in half year. and customers think of it a quality problem.


http://www.parsonsmusic.com/ www.kawaiyc.com http://www.yangtzeriver-pianos.com/

We produce and sell KAWAI Yangtzeriver Wilh.Steinberg Ronisch Brodmann Schonbrunn
Re: the issue of KAWAI K series key surface turn to red [Re: pianocritic] #2104089
06/17/13 10:26 PM
06/17/13 10:26 PM
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 1,746
Auckland New Zealand
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Robert 45 Offline
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Auckland New Zealand
My question would also be why has nothing been heard of this problem until now? Kawai has been using Neotex key covers for many years.
I would like to hear more factual information about it. I think that it is unfair, even scurrilous to make these allegations unless there is clear evidence of a problem.

Robert.

Last edited by Robert 45; 06/17/13 10:27 PM.
Re: the issue of KAWAI K series key surface turn to red [Re: Robert 45] #2104093
06/17/13 10:33 PM
06/17/13 10:33 PM
Joined: May 2010
Posts: 188
yichang city china mainland
chen Offline OP
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chen  Offline OP
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Posts: 188
yichang city china mainland
in china we found this problem several years ago. i don't know what about it in USA .

maybe this issue about the number of sale.
in china we can sell K series 4000


http://www.parsonsmusic.com/ www.kawaiyc.com http://www.yangtzeriver-pianos.com/

We produce and sell KAWAI Yangtzeriver Wilh.Steinberg Ronisch Brodmann Schonbrunn
Re: the issue of KAWAI K series key surface turn to red [Re: chen] #2104112
06/17/13 11:04 PM
06/17/13 11:04 PM
Joined: Feb 2012
Posts: 167
CA
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monads Offline
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CA
Chen, any photos to share of this phenomenon? Could it be dye leaching from the 'red' dust key cover in extreme heat conditions or exposed to sunlight?

The NEOTEX keys on my K8 turned smurf blue. And this was directly related to repeat applications of the Cory product 'Keybrite'. The NEOTEX key was absorbing the product!

I posted/photos in the tech forums here for help on this. At first Kawai instructed me to use a magic eraser to clean the keys? I sampled on one key even though I knew magic erasers was an abrasive product (Kawai recommended after all) and while the blue color was removed, the key lost its shine/top coat. I raised the issue with Kawai again and a tech actually removed all the keys from the K8 for professional repair (Kawai fixed free of charge).

I don't use any other products to clean the keys on my K8 except warm water and a white cloth. NO ISSUES. I have noticed some blotching on the keys however since repair, and this no doubt is related to the chemical reaction/acidity level in my body (everyone's different) to key reaction.

If you have some photos please post, otherwise it's going to be difficult to troubleshoot/find support. Also mention what/if any products, cloths were used to clean the keys and frequency. Remember even a red cloth, even colored/decorative napkins have dyes that can leach dye if used to clean a NEOTEX key.

monads


My music_website at http://www.OdysseyofaG.com
Re: the issue of KAWAI K series key surface turn to red [Re: monads] #2104126
06/17/13 11:30 PM
06/17/13 11:30 PM
Joined: May 2010
Posts: 188
yichang city china mainland
chen Offline OP
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chen  Offline OP
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Posts: 188
yichang city china mainland
[Linked Image]

KAWAI company give the answer is that One;NEOTEX key top can absorb sweat,also can absorb the water from air,some people's sweat special,can react with some material in NEOTEX,so turn to red; Two: use the red keyboard cover,the cover dye the key top red .

and KAWAI company still work on research it ,now they are not find the basic reason still


http://www.parsonsmusic.com/ www.kawaiyc.com http://www.yangtzeriver-pianos.com/

We produce and sell KAWAI Yangtzeriver Wilh.Steinberg Ronisch Brodmann Schonbrunn
Re: the issue of KAWAI K series key surface turn to red [Re: Robert 45] #2104271
06/18/13 09:17 AM
06/18/13 09:17 AM
Joined: Feb 2013
Posts: 373
Michigan, USA
Schubertslieder Offline
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Originally Posted by Robert 45
My question would also be why has nothing been heard of this problem until now? Kawai has been using Neotex key covers for many years.
I would like to hear more factual information about it. I think that it is unfair, even scurrilous to make these allegations unless there is clear evidence of a problem.

Robert.

I agree regarding the unfairness.

We are getting one side of the story by someone living in China.

We are not being told anything about the conditions these pianos are subjected to. We also do not have information about the pianists who play these instruments and what they are doing daily to cause this.

Living in USA, I personally have never heard of this. Also, just as some other posters stated, this is the first time I heard about it.


Charles Peck (American)--Metropolitan
Debussy--various pieces
Grieg--various pieces
Re: the issue of KAWAI K series key surface turn to red [Re: chen] #2104310
06/18/13 11:02 AM
06/18/13 11:02 AM
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Posts: 119
Chicago
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RX2Bunny Offline
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Chicago
This is quite scary! I would never want that "red" on my piano!!

@Monads, thanks for sharing your experience. I need to watch out when i clean my piano too. do you use anything to clean the cabinet? the dealer i bought my piano from recommended and gave me a "trick" http://www.amazon.com/Trick-Piano-P...&keywords=piano+cleaner+trick+polish

Do you think this is okay or you have other suggestion? Thanks!

Re: the issue of KAWAI K series key surface turn to red [Re: chen] #2104398
06/18/13 01:13 PM
06/18/13 01:13 PM
Joined: Feb 2012
Posts: 167
CA
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monads Offline
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CA
@RileyBunny,

I use the Cory Piano Polish (Super High Gloss) for the cabinet smile It works excellent. Originally, I purchased their Ultimate Care Kit, which includes: Key-Brite, High Gloss Piano Polish & 2 fiber cloths specifically for each product (not to be mix-matched). It also appears from visiting their website the 2 fiber cloths have changed or updated since my kit included dark green & blue colored cloths whereas now they are light grey & blue. I contacted both Cory and Kawai regarding my keys. Cory was helpful, but didn't confirm testing on the NEOTEX Key surface. Thankfully Kawai resolved in the end.



My music_website at http://www.OdysseyofaG.com
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