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Joined: Feb 2013
Posts: 752
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I'm not sure about Jurgen, but I have this exact problem. I once made the mistake of buying a recording of Bach's Brandenburg Concerti that were played at "baroque" pitch. The interpretation as such is beautiful, but the semitone pitch difference bothers me so badly that I can't listen to the recording any more.
If it's a piece of music I don't know, I just assume the key I hear is the key it's written in. But if I know the music (as I do in the case of the Brandenburgs), I balk at the "wrong" pitch, and my musical experience is completely spoiled. Mind you, I've really tried to "groove" myself into the recording and listen past the exact pitch, but to no avail. It's wrong in my ears. A pianist friend of mine, who has perfect pitch, also sang in a baroque chamber choir for a while. She had to quit because she found it too difficult to sing well in tune.
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Joined: Mar 2009
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Pitch - either "perfect" or otherwise - is where the boss says it is.  When harpsichordists performed chamber works with the ASO, I always asked where to set the pitch. (Dowd French Double Concert). Invariably, the answer was, A440. When the Maestro himself both conducted and played the Brandenburg Concerti - all in one program - he too requested A440. Only once was I asked to slide the transposing manual down a semitone for a guest performer (roughly "Baroque pitch"). The A440 performances were very good - lively. To my ear anything set below A435 makes even a C major performance seem like a dirge.
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Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 2,667
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If it ain't B'roque, don't fix it.
Autodidact interested in piano technology.
1970 44" Ibach, daily music maker.
1977 "Ortega" 8' + 8' harpsichord (Rainer Schütze, Heidelberg)
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Joined: Feb 2013
Posts: 752
500 Post Club Member
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500 Post Club Member
Joined: Feb 2013
Posts: 752 |
Pitch - either "perfect" or otherwise - is where the boss says it is. When harpsichordists performed chamber works with the ASO, I always asked where to set the pitch. (Dowd French Double Concert). Invariably, the answer was, A440. When the Maestro himself both conducted and played the Brandenburg Concerti - all in one program - he too requested A440. Only once was I asked to slide the transposing manual down a semitone for a guest performer (roughly "Baroque pitch"). The A440 performances were very good - lively. To my ear anything set below A435 makes even a C major performance seem like a dirge. Yeah, well try singing Beethoven 9 at 440. It was bad enough to perform at 420-430, but at 440, the chorus and soloists just scream and make a truly ugly sound. The guy hated women, I think.
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Joined: Feb 2013
Posts: 752
500 Post Club Member
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If it ain't B'roque, don't fix it. Well said.
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Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 2,082
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Pitch - either "perfect" or otherwise - is where the boss says it is. When harpsichordists performed chamber works with the ASO, I always asked where to set the pitch. (Dowd French Double Concert). Invariably, the answer was, A440. When the Maestro himself both conducted and played the Brandenburg Concerti - all in one program - he too requested A440. Only once was I asked to slide the transposing manual down a semitone for a guest performer (roughly "Baroque pitch"). The A440 performances were very good - lively. To my ear anything set below A435 makes even a C major performance seem like a dirge. Yeah, well try singing Beethoven 9 at 440. It was bad enough to perform at 420-430, but at 440, the chorus and soloists just scream and make a truly ugly sound. The guy hated women, I think. ASO did the 9th once or twice, but I have no idea what pitch the Maestro ordered for the day. I understand his major was voice, so perhaps he knocked it down a notch or two? I don't know.
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Joined: May 2003
Posts: 2,845
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I have only known of one - a blind client - who could identify any of the 88 by hearing alone. Most people think of this as "perfect pitch." It is really relative pitch. She could not identify A440 as opposed to A439 or 441 without aid of a fork or ETD. When someone comes along who can, for me that will be perfect pitch. Greetings, There was an oboist here that could tell if the pitch on the piano was at 439, and demonstrated it several times. I have a lot of customers that can not only tell you what note you just played, but they can also tell you every one of the 8 notes you play in a big chord. Scares me, sometimes. Regards,
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Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 2,082
2000 Post Club Member
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Posts: 2,082 |
I have only known of one - a blind client - who could identify any of the 88 by hearing alone. Most people think of this as "perfect pitch." It is really relative pitch. She could not identify A440 as opposed to A439 or 441 without aid of a fork or ETD. When someone comes along who can, for me that will be perfect pitch. Greetings, There was an oboist here that could tell if the pitch on the piano was at 439, and demonstrated it several times. I have a lot of customers that can not only tell you what note you just played, but they can also tell you every one of the 8 notes you play in a big chord. Scares me, sometimes. Regards, Thanks, Ed. If I understand you correctly, the oboist could do so by listening to the piano alone. This is amazing.
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Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 3,332
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I have this discussion with people on a regular basis. I tell people that the idea of "perfect pitch" is a sloppy use of the word "perfect". I also tell them that as a piano tuner I don't believe in perfect pitch. Every piano tunes a little bit differently inharmonicity. If different pianos have slightly different pitches for middle C, which one is perfect? Still, some people are skeptical. Many people seem to enjoy the idea that some individuals can do impossible things.
Last edited by rysowers; 06/17/13 11:12 AM.
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Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 2,562
2000 Post Club Member
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Joined: Apr 2006
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Pitch - either "perfect" or otherwise - is where the boss says it is. When harpsichordists performed chamber works with the ASO, I always asked where to set the pitch. (Dowd French Double Concert). Invariably, the answer was, A440. When the Maestro himself both conducted and played the Brandenburg Concerti - all in one program - he too requested A440. Only once was I asked to slide the transposing manual down a semitone for a guest performer (roughly "Baroque pitch"). The A440 performances were very good - lively. To my ear anything set below A435 makes even a C major performance seem like a dirge. Yeah, well try singing Beethoven 9 at 440. It was bad enough to perform at 420-430, but at 440, the chorus and soloists just scream and make a truly ugly sound. The guy hated women, I think. I was the tenor soloist for a performance of the CPE Bach Magnificat last fall here locally. Having never done it before, I listened to a couple of recordings, and, while it was still at the limits of my range, I found it singable for me. I get to orchestra rehearsal, and it's nearly impossible for me (what a difference a half step makes!). The conductor was running it at A440, and the recordings were 1/2 step down; the way it's mostly performed, according to the conductor. In the end, I surprised myself at my ability at singing lyric Baroque tenor...
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Joined: Feb 2013
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I conducted the Mag at 440, but much prefer to listen to it at 415. It seems more calm. Kudos to you for singing it at 440.
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Joined: Mar 2009
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...To my ear anything set below A435 makes even a C major performance seem like a dirge. One does, indeed, use hyperbole here at his own peril.
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Joined: May 2013
Posts: 376
Full Member
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Posts: 376 |
rxd, the rest of the story is, this gal(who is blind and autistic), tunes pianos for The University of Delaware.
Making the world a better sounding place, one piano at a time...
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Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 2,571
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rxd, the rest of the story is, this gal(who is blind and autistic), tunes pianos for The University of Delaware. Thanks, Gary but what intrigues me is, did she ever tune a whole piano using this highly accurate pitch memory and what were the results?, is she able to tune to 442 when required with no problems?, what method does she tune by now.... So many questions. Thanks.
Amanda Reckonwith
Concert & Recording tuner-tech, London, England.
"in theory, practice and theory are the same thing. In practice, they're not." - Lawrence P. 'Yogi' Berra.
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Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 9,230
9000 Post Club Member
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...To my ear anything set below A435 makes even a C major performance seem like a dirge. One does, indeed, use hyperbole here at his own peril. Tuning an instrument intended for 440 half step lower is real nonsense as the tone quality is lost with more unfocused pitches in mediums, loss of energy, etc. If the instrument is intended to be tuned at 415 that is a different story. I guess the tone quality may be more disturbing than the pitch, but it may be difficult for someone that is setup on 440 to have to think half a step lower.
Professional of the profession.
Foo Foo specialist
I wish to add some kind and sensitive phrase but nothing comes to mind.!
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Joined: May 2013
Posts: 376
Full Member
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Full Member
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rxd,
The answer is NO! I made her use a tuning fork as a pitch reference. I taught her to set a termperment the right way, the same way I was taught. (tuning by fouths and fifths, and checking with thirds and sixths along the way). I am under no illusion that she will ever be a full service technician.(I doubt she would be capable of diagnosing a sticking key, much less replace a broken middle C string), but she is a darn good tuner!
Making the world a better sounding place, one piano at a time...
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