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Yamaha CFX Source of Parts #2101961
06/13/13 12:49 PM
06/13/13 12:49 PM
Joined: Oct 2010
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worldlinerai Offline OP
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worldlinerai  Offline OP
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Hi, I rarely visit PW since I am busy with other things.

However, I am kind of curious over someone's claim about the new Yamaha CFX concert grand on YouTube.

http://youtu.be/9cHIjDNOWUs

The uploader said that the Yamaha CFXs are sourced with Bosendorfer action and soundboard. However, I don't believe that statement is true especially the soundboard and the fact that Bosendorfer gets their action from Renner. Although Bosendorfer is owned by Yamaha, I think of them as being two separate divisions under the Yamaha company... basically like two manufactures under one owner.

I really want to get my facts correct before heading into a dispute with the uploader's claim. Given that PW has many experts and maybe a few insiders, maybe you can help me get my facts straight about these the CFX.


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Re: Yamaha CFX Source of Parts [Re: worldlinerai] #2101974
06/13/13 01:13 PM
06/13/13 01:13 PM
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 4,956
Georgia, USA
terminaldegree Offline
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I don't think the info in the link is accurate, based on what I have heard from Yamaha and Bosendorfer reps. Yamaha makes their own action and I believe is very proud of that. I have heard nobody say that they're using the Renner hammers, and I think Yamaha is proud to use their own stuff in their pianos.

I also find it somewhat laughable that a soundboard for a Yamaha-designed concert grand is somehow "from Bosendorfer". Now, they could source the wood from the same supplier, or specify the same grade, but I'd have a hard time envisioning a sub-line in Austria whose sole purpose would be to assemble soundboards for Yamahas being built in Japan, when the materials could simply be shipped to Hammamatsu and assembled there, and fitted to the piano.

I've played my fair share of model 280 and 290 Bosies, and tried the CFX at NAMM, and can say the sound signature between the two brands is notably different. I'd even say the 280 and 290 are a little different, while we're at it, but that's the subject of another thread (and I'd need to play a couple of new 290's before I can say definitively).


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Re: Yamaha CFX Source of Parts [Re: worldlinerai] #2101987
06/13/13 01:39 PM
06/13/13 01:39 PM
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 11,010
Maryland/DC/No. VA
Steve Cohen Offline
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No way. Yamaha has their own soundboard and action.


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Jasons Music
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www.jasonsmusic.com
My postings, unless stated otherwise, are my personal opinions, not those of my clients.
Re: Yamaha CFX Source of Parts [Re: worldlinerai] #2101996
06/13/13 01:54 PM
06/13/13 01:54 PM
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 199
Skokie, IL
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Grand Piano Haus Offline
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Skokie, IL
Originally Posted by worldlinerai
Hi, I rarely visit PW since I am busy with other things.

However, I am kind of curious over someone's claim about the new Yamaha CFX concert grand on YouTube.

http://youtu.be/9cHIjDNOWUs

The uploader said that the Yamaha CFXs are sourced with Bosendorfer action and soundboard. However, I don't believe that statement is true especially the soundboard and the fact that Bosendorfer gets their action from Renner. Although Bosendorfer is owned by Yamaha, I think of them as being two separate divisions under the Yamaha company... basically like two manufactures under one owner.

I really want to get my facts correct before heading into a dispute with the uploader's claim. Given that PW has many experts and maybe a few insiders, maybe you can help me get my facts straight about these the CFX.


The soundboard, hammers and action mechanism are completely different between Bösendorfer & Yamaha CF Series. Bösendorfer sources its tone-wood near Saltzburg, Austria and parts of Southeastern Bavaria.


We proudly represent: Yamaha, Bösendorfer, Steingraeber & Söhne, Schimmel, Ritmüller, Pearl River, Disklavier Enspire, AvantGrand, Clavinova, adsilent & Live-Performance model-LX http://www.GrandPianoHaus.com.
Re: Yamaha CFX Source of Parts [Re: worldlinerai] #2102013
06/13/13 02:11 PM
06/13/13 02:11 PM
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 3,919
Vancouver Island, BC, Canada
Supply Offline
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I would be very surprised if the hammers have Royal George felt on them, as claimed. Royal George felt was used on entry level Korean and Chinese pianos....

But it is usually not worth arguing with people who don't understand that a little knowledge is a dangerous thing.

Re: Yamaha CFX Source of Parts [Re: Supply] #2102059
06/13/13 04:14 PM
06/13/13 04:14 PM
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 11,010
Maryland/DC/No. VA
Steve Cohen Offline
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Originally Posted by Supply
I would be very surprised if the hammers have Royal George felt on them, as claimed. Royal George felt was used on entry level Korean and Chinese pianos....

But it is usually not worth arguing with people who don't understand that a little knowledge is a dangerous thing.


Royal George hammerfelt was used on the early Yamaha C Series pianos.


Piano Industry Consultant

Contributing Editor & Consultant - Acoustic & Digital Piano Buyer

Jasons Music
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Family Owned and Operated Since 1937.

www.jasonsmusic.com
My postings, unless stated otherwise, are my personal opinions, not those of my clients.
Re: Yamaha CFX Source of Parts [Re: worldlinerai] #2102251
06/14/13 12:25 AM
06/14/13 12:25 AM
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 3,919
Vancouver Island, BC, Canada
Supply Offline
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Early C series pianos - let me see... that would be 40 years ago, wouldn't it? Or maybe more? Sorry, I am not a Yamaha historian.

Re: Yamaha CFX Source of Parts [Re: Supply] #2102378
06/14/13 09:31 AM
06/14/13 09:31 AM
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 11,010
Maryland/DC/No. VA
Steve Cohen Offline
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Originally Posted by Supply
Early C series pianos - let me see... that would be 40 years ago, wouldn't it? Or maybe more? Sorry, I am not a Yamaha historian.


Are you calling me ancient???

laugh

I think they use Royal George hammerfelts until the early- or mid-80s.


Piano Industry Consultant

Contributing Editor & Consultant - Acoustic & Digital Piano Buyer

Jasons Music
Maryland/DC/No. VA
Family Owned and Operated Since 1937.

www.jasonsmusic.com
My postings, unless stated otherwise, are my personal opinions, not those of my clients.
Re: Yamaha CFX Source of Parts [Re: Steve Cohen] #2102431
06/14/13 11:25 AM
06/14/13 11:25 AM
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 3,919
Vancouver Island, BC, Canada
Supply Offline
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Vancouver Island, BC, Canada
Originally Posted by Steve Cohen
Are you calling me ancient???
laugh
I think they use Royal George hammerfelts until the early- or mid-80s.

I judge people's age by the number of their posts to PW. You are getting up there, but are still a long way from being a shrunken, shriveled ancient geezer... I probably don't have to mention any names... whistle

Re: Yamaha CFX Source of Parts [Re: worldlinerai] #2102435
06/14/13 11:28 AM
06/14/13 11:28 AM
Joined: May 2012
Posts: 7,439
Rochester MN
Minnesota Marty Offline

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Steve is about to join the "Yikes Club!"

grin


Marty in Minnesota

It's much easier to bash a Steinway than it is to play one.
Re: Yamaha CFX Source of Parts [Re: worldlinerai] #2102472
06/14/13 12:37 PM
06/14/13 12:37 PM
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 11,010
Maryland/DC/No. VA
Steve Cohen Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Steve Cohen  Offline
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Joined: May 2001
Posts: 11,010
Maryland/DC/No. VA
laugh


Piano Industry Consultant

Contributing Editor & Consultant - Acoustic & Digital Piano Buyer

Jasons Music
Maryland/DC/No. VA
Family Owned and Operated Since 1937.

www.jasonsmusic.com
My postings, unless stated otherwise, are my personal opinions, not those of my clients.
Re: Yamaha CFX Source of Parts [Re: worldlinerai] #2102475
06/14/13 12:44 PM
06/14/13 12:44 PM
Joined: May 2012
Posts: 7,439
Rochester MN
Minnesota Marty Offline

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Niney-Nine hunerd peeaners on da wall, niney-nine keyboids...

What?


Marty in Minnesota

It's much easier to bash a Steinway than it is to play one.
Re: Yamaha CFX Source of Parts [Re: Minnesota Marty] #2102485
06/14/13 01:11 PM
06/14/13 01:11 PM
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 11,040
Williamsburg, VA
Piano*Dad Offline
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Originally Posted by Minnesota Marty
Steve is about to join the "Yikes Club!"

grin


Yeah, and I'm not too far behind. But he is waaaay older than I am. grin

Re: Yamaha CFX Source of Parts [Re: worldlinerai] #2102956
06/15/13 03:32 PM
06/15/13 03:32 PM
Joined: Jun 2009
Posts: 1,607
California
4evrBeginR Offline
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Joined: Jun 2009
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California
The Yamaha CFX now uses spruce from Bavaria instead of Alaska for the CFX and CX series soundboards, but they are Yamaha soundboards, not Boesendorfer. Lots of other pianos have Bavarian spruce soundboards, none of them are from Boesendorfer except for a Boesendorfer.

Yamaha always made their own action, and the CX actions are very good, and the S and CF series actions are amazing. Yamaha now utilizes German wood for their hammers, but hammers are made by Yamaha, not Renner or another German hammer maker.

Yamaha altered the designed of the CFX/CX series significantly after the aquisition of Boesendorfer, but unless you work for the Yamaha piano design division, you probably won't know whether the design change was home-grown, or technology transfer from Boesendorfer, maybe a combination of both.


Art is never finished, only abandoned. - da Vinci
Re: Yamaha CFX Source of Parts [Re: worldlinerai] #2103019
06/15/13 06:53 PM
06/15/13 06:53 PM
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 27,663
Oakland
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BDB Offline
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There seems to be the assumption that Bösendorfer is better than Yamaha. In my experience, the best Yamaha and Bösendorfer are different, but I would not say that one is better than the other.


Semipro Tech
Re: Yamaha CFX Source of Parts [Re: 4evrBeginR] #2103071
06/15/13 09:34 PM
06/15/13 09:34 PM
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 3,919
Vancouver Island, BC, Canada
Supply Offline
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Originally Posted by 4evrBeginR
... Yamaha now utilizes German wood for their hammers...
I take it you mean German felt on the hammers?

Re: Yamaha CFX Source of Parts [Re: Supply] #2103078
06/15/13 09:58 PM
06/15/13 09:58 PM
Joined: Jun 2009
Posts: 1,607
California
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Originally Posted by Supply
I take it you mean German felt on the hammers?

Yes, I was thinking wool, but typed wood. smile


Art is never finished, only abandoned. - da Vinci
Re: Yamaha CFX Source of Parts [Re: worldlinerai] #2103079
06/15/13 10:04 PM
06/15/13 10:04 PM
Joined: May 2012
Posts: 7,439
Rochester MN
Minnesota Marty Offline

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Aren't piano hammers made of wood and covered with felt?

Lama wool makes lovely felt.


Marty in Minnesota

It's much easier to bash a Steinway than it is to play one.
Re: Yamaha CFX Source of Parts [Re: Minnesota Marty] #2103139
06/16/13 01:27 AM
06/16/13 01:27 AM
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 10
5-pts Island
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worldlinerai Offline OP
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worldlinerai  Offline OP
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Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 10
5-pts Island
Hi again.

Thanks for all responses. I did learn something new after reading some of the replies. I actually thought Royal George Hammers were top-of-the-line hammers but it turns out that some of the entry level models used them as well.

I kind of felt suspicious over the YouTube uploader's claim given that I've watch two lengthy videos of the Yamaha's grand piano production (The C-Series and the S/CF-Series) and read through Bosendorfer's catalog about how they build their pianos. Also given the fact that these two pianos are built with different ideologies and different methods, I find it strange that Yamahas would share parts.

After thinking about it, I should leave the person who uploaded the video alone since he is probably happy with his Yamaha CFX and I'm just there to burst his pride bubble. But it's nice to get some ideas of where they source their parts (Hoping I did not expose company secrets).

I know I should not look at videos like these, but I just happen to stumble upon it on YouTube. I just enjoy watching people's demonstrations Bosendorfer pianos and I wish to own one of those pianos someday. Given that I am not as old as some of the PW members on here, I probably have years ahead to make it come true.


Forever, we can make it.
Re: Yamaha CFX Source of Parts [Re: Minnesota Marty] #2103140
06/16/13 01:32 AM
06/16/13 01:32 AM
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 3,919
Vancouver Island, BC, Canada
Supply Offline
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Originally Posted by Minnesota Marty
Aren't piano hammers made of wood and covered with felt?
Rhetorical question?

While the characteristics of the wood used in the hammer core do play a part in hammer mass and tonal response, it is almost insignificant when compared to the importance of the hammer felt characteristics for tone and dynamics.


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