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Cliburn Competition Pianos - Comments #2090364
05/27/13 11:42 PM
05/27/13 11:42 PM
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Rochester MN
Minnesota Marty Offline OP

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It is interesting to have a good chance to hear the differences between four different S&S-D's in direct comparison. They are all so different and it's delightful to hear how the choice of instrument is used by the performers. They are:

New York S&S-D - Owned by the Cliburn Foundation
Hamburg S&S-D - Owned by the Cliburn Foundation
New York S&S-D - Owned by Steinway Hall, NYC
Hamburg S&S-D - Owned by Steinway Hall, NYC

Please leave your detailed comments and comparisons of the instruments as you listen to them.

This could be fun!


Marty in Minnesota

It's much easier to bash a Steinway than it is to play one.
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Re: Cliburn Competition Pianos - Comments [Re: Minnesota Marty] #2090407
05/28/13 01:32 AM
05/28/13 01:32 AM
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I don't know if enough of us are that conscious of which piano we're hearing, because I think it's outside of what we're mainly interested in and what we're listening for. I mean, FWIW, even though I'm fairly a junkie for that kind of thing, I've hardly been paying attention to it. But probably at least some others are....

Re: Cliburn Competition Pianos - Comments [Re: Minnesota Marty] #2090494
05/28/13 08:00 AM
05/28/13 08:00 AM
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I've seen some of your comments about the kind of piano in the other thread, and it amazes me that you can tell the difference so readily. It probably shouldn't amaze, because I am very picky about what pianos I use when I play, but when others play I'm not sure I can distinguish my a player's individual sound from the piano's sound. (Or maybe it is just my poor laptop speakers that obscure the difference.) Could you explain to us what YOU hear, as some of the competitors play, so that I can learn?

Last edited by Arghhh; 05/28/13 08:01 AM.

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Re: Cliburn Competition Pianos - Comments [Re: Minnesota Marty] #2090522
05/28/13 08:44 AM
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I can easily discern the difference in tonal character between different brands of concert grands from the major manufacturers (having played all of them myself), but, unless the voicing has been done against the grain of the instruments' inherent character (e.g. trying to change the typically mellow Bl├╝thner sound into a brilliant Yamaha-like sound....), I couldn't hear the difference between even a NY Steinway and a Hamburg one on recordings by different pianists, let alone between two NY ones. The pianist's own touch, IMO, makes a much bigger difference to the sound - just listening to the various Ravel Gaspards is fascinating - not because of the instrument(s), but because of the pianists' individual tonal preferences, transmitting to their touch, voicing, articulation etc. (I'm listening via high-end headphones, Grado SR325is).

I wish the Van Cliburn competition had given the pianists choices of different brands of concert grands rather than two each of NY and Hamburg Steinway D's, like the 2010 Chopin Competition. I have the CDs of the top prizewinners from that competition, and the difference in the tonal characteristics between the Yamaha CFX, Fazioli F278 and Steinway D (Yulianna Avdeeva, Daniil Trifonov and Ingolf Wunder respectively) are obvious, and I'm fascinated by how those pianists use those characteristics to their advantage in their playing of the same music.

I suspect that the choices the pianists make in the current Van Cliburn is based more on the key action and feel, than the actual sound of the four Steinway grands available to them.


"I don't play accurately - anyone can play accurately - but I play with wonderful expression. As far as the piano is concerned, sentiment is my forte. I keep science for Life."
Re: Cliburn Competition Pianos - Comments [Re: Minnesota Marty] #2090546
05/28/13 09:49 AM
05/28/13 09:49 AM
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Rochester MN
Minnesota Marty Offline OP

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The four pianos have distinct tonal structures and 'quirks.' It seems to me, that the competitors have chosen an instrument which emphasizes their strengths and covers their weaknesses. Let me give my reactions to them.

Foundation Hamburg: It is the most percussive of all. It has a natural clarity which is great for Baroque and Classical compositions. It also is perfect for Impressionism. Its voice is filled with partials and has the most 'stringy' sound of all of the instruments. I use the term as a good thing and not as a detriment. However, when played at over ff, the partials (overtones) overwhelm the tuned fundamentals of the strings . All of the clarity becomes lost in a sea of overtones and in the low bass, one hears the third as primary. I also notice that the dampers are not immediate in silencing loud sound. The piano tends to keep ringing and an instantaneous damping of all of the strings seems to be impossible. Many times I feel that I have been 'pinged' to near death in forceful performances.

Steinway Hall Hamburg: Less percussive that the Foundation Hamburg. It is also more even across the entire scale in its voicing. It has the good stringy sound which many casually refer to as "European." This piano holds the fundamental of the pitch, better than the above, as volume increases. The dampers are in better regulation, also. This piano fits the Late Classical and in the hands of the right pianist, really sings in the big Romantic compositions.

Steinway Hall American A good solid piano. Very clear and very responsive in creating tonal color with volume and finger attack. This piano seems to be able to be the delightful chameleon of the group. Here, the beautiful 'stringy' sound comes out at high volume levels. The bass is the most complete in what it has to offer. I consider it the best choice for programs which display all compositional periods. It is the most flexible of the bunch. Handling all periods very well, it would be my choice for Contemporary programming.

Foundation American Not as colorful as the Steinway Hall American. But, inner voicing and counterpoint seem to be easily defined. This instrument is voiced to what we hear as the "Steinway Sound." The bass response and color don't develop quite as much as the other NYC-D. As far as I can tell, the only contestant to choose this piano is McDonald. In his hands, it is the perfect instrument for his technique. Being the Local Boy, I wonder if he has a lot of experience with the piano.

To quickly identify which is which by sight, Both Hamburgs are in full gloss finish. The foundation piano has a large plaque attached to the bass side of the case. The Steinway Hall Hamburg has the standard storage skids on the bass side. The Americans are a little more difficult to spot. Both are satin finish. The Steinway Hall piano has an out of level G# in the bass. It is easy to spot when there is close up of the player's hands shot from the bass side.

I consider the piano choice to be one of the judged areas of competition. If the judges didn't consider it important, there would be no choice and all contestants would perform on a single instrument. It's not a primary consideration, but it does have influence and effect, and the choice becomes an evaluation.

As far as I can track, the contestants are preforming on the same instrument in both phases of the prelims. I wonder if they are allowed to change as the competition progresses?

Please consider that we are all listening to a web stream. I have no idea if these comparisons hold true when listening in the hall.

Let's hear your response and evaluations of the instruments.


Marty in Minnesota

It's much easier to bash a Steinway than it is to play one.
Re: Cliburn Competition Pianos - Comments [Re: Minnesota Marty] #2091251
05/29/13 10:01 AM
05/29/13 10:01 AM
Joined: May 2012
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Rochester MN
Minnesota Marty Offline OP

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If anyone is interested, this was posted in a thread in the Piano Forum:
___________________________________________________

"I thought everyone might find the breakdown of Steinway pianos used for the Cliburn Competition interesting.

A total of 40 Steinway pianos are used for the competition:

(4) Steinway Concert Grand pianos for the stage - 2 owned by The Cliburn and 2 from the Steinway C&A Bank in New York.

*The pianos below are provided by Steinway Hall - Dallas/ Fort Worth/ Plano.

(2) Steinway Model B's for the warm-up rooms.

(1) Steinway Model O for the judges room.

(1) Steinway Model M in dressing room.

(2) Steinway 1098's for on-site practice rooms.

(30) Steinway Model M's, O's, and A's - One for each host home so all the competitor have a similar piano to practice on during their stay.

The Steinway concert grand pianos for the stage are maintained by technicians from Steinway NY. The practice pianos at Bass Hall and the Host Home pianos are maintained by our staff of technicians.


Also, below are 2 links with more information about the pianos used for the competition.

The Cliburn Competition at 50 (from the Steinway Owners Magazine): http://www.steinway.com/news/articles/the-van-cliburn-at-50/

The Cliburn Legends Collection: http://www.steinwaypianos.com/cliburn

We enjoy the relationship we've built with the Cliburn Foundation and to be a part of this world-renowned piano competition is truly an honor.

I Hope you found this informative.


Edited by Casey Dan (Yesterday at 11:46 PM)
_________________________
Casey D. Saliba
Steinway Hall - Dallas/ Fort Worth/ Plano"


Marty in Minnesota

It's much easier to bash a Steinway than it is to play one.
Re: Cliburn Competition Pianos - Comments [Re: Minnesota Marty] #2093252
06/01/13 09:24 AM
06/01/13 09:24 AM
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Posts: 7,439
Rochester MN
Minnesota Marty Offline OP

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As we are about to begin the Semi-Final Round, has anyone formed opinions on the different pianos?


Marty in Minnesota

It's much easier to bash a Steinway than it is to play one.
Re: Cliburn Competition Pianos - Comments [Re: Minnesota Marty] #2093258
06/01/13 09:48 AM
06/01/13 09:48 AM
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Originally Posted by Minnesota Marty
Please consider that we are all listening to a web stream. I have no idea if these comparisons hold true when listening in the hall.


Having listened live (in 2005) and online, there is a huge difference. Part of it is the energy of being there, part of it is the fact that audiences are quite a bit further away from the piano than the microphones, and part of it is that web streaming + bad computer speakers distorts the sound quite a bit.

Web streams usually don't have the bandwidth to handle the full frequency range of the recording.

And most home computer audio equipment is designed with casual listening to TV and pop music in mind. (With overly heavy bass and compression, etc...)



"If we continually try to force a child to do what he is afraid to do, he will become more timid, and will use his brains and energy, not to explore the unknown, but to find ways to avoid the pressures we put on him." (John Holt)

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Re: Cliburn Competition Pianos - Comments [Re: Minnesota Marty] #2093260
06/01/13 09:50 AM
06/01/13 09:50 AM
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I have, sort of. First, I think your assessment of the pianos is spot on. I'm able to get the sound for the competition to play through my receiver sound system while I watch on TV which really helps rather than listening through the computer. Generally I prefer the American S&S sound but the Hamburg works well for classical and baroque repitoure. The Hamburgs are generally too bright and percussive for me, but they might project better in the hall which might be why they get used so much. Personally I think the choice of instrument is critical and should not be taken lightly. String players, brass players, woodwinds etc are all very specific about their sound and tring to get the sound they have in their heads. Pianists need to be just as picky. A good pianist should have a preconceived sound in their heads before ever playing a note. I don't see how one can ignore or even take lightly the choice of instrument.


Do or do not. There is no try.
Re: Cliburn Competition Pianos - Comments [Re: Minnesota Marty] #2093263
06/01/13 09:54 AM
06/01/13 09:54 AM
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Rochester MN
Minnesota Marty Offline OP

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Minnesota Marty  Offline OP

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Kreisler,

I appreciate what you are saying, but we are all listening with all of the above hindrances applied. None of us have any way to assess the live sound in the hall, but all four of the pianos have distinct tonal difference as can be heard through the systems we are using. I offered this thread as a discussion of what the members are hearing and not a conjecture of what the audience and judges hear in the hall.


Marty in Minnesota

It's much easier to bash a Steinway than it is to play one.
Re: Cliburn Competition Pianos - Comments [Re: Minnesota Marty] #2093274
06/01/13 10:23 AM
06/01/13 10:23 AM
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I am attending the competition live, and I can tell you that by FAR, the most soaring and effortlessly projected sound flys forth from the Hamburgs [edited to reflect new perspective]. Only one or two competitors have been able to maintain clarity when playing on either of the New Yorks (Favorin comes to mind immediately), and whatever good things the rest were doing got hopelessly loss in New York slush, and that is what the jury heard. That's not to say that the Hamburgs don't have percussive tendencies - they do, and several performers that did not advance (and one or two that did) showed off this quality of it in music not calling for that kind of sound. The performers with the very finest, crystal clear yet warm and overtone-rich sound in the hall (Koziak, Kholodenko) have all played the Hamburg.

Last edited by AldenH; 06/02/13 12:48 AM.
Re: Cliburn Competition Pianos - Comments [Re: Minnesota Marty] #2093299
06/01/13 11:39 AM
06/01/13 11:39 AM
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Rochester MN
Minnesota Marty Offline OP

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Alden,

That is interesting to know. Through the web stream, my reaction is just the opposite. That's the reason for this thread, to hear everyone's opinions and comments. You and I seem to hear very different characteristic in a piano's tonal make-up.


Marty in Minnesota

It's much easier to bash a Steinway than it is to play one.
Re: Cliburn Competition Pianos - Comments [Re: Minnesota Marty] #2096425
06/05/13 06:16 PM
06/05/13 06:16 PM
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Rochester MN
Minnesota Marty Offline OP

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Here's the rundown of choices by the artists to hear how the pianos sound with orchestra.

Sean Chen -- Hamburg/Cliburn Foundation
Fei-Fei Dong -- American/Cliburn Foundation
Vladym Kholodenko -- Hamburg/S&S-C&A
Nikita Mndoyants -- American/Cliburn Foundation
Beatrice Rana -- Hamburg/S&S-C&A
Tomoki Sakata -- Hamburg/Cliburn Foundation

Enjoy the Finals!


Marty in Minnesota

It's much easier to bash a Steinway than it is to play one.
Re: Cliburn Competition Pianos - Comments [Re: Minnesota Marty] #2098854
06/08/13 09:10 PM
06/08/13 09:10 PM
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Minnesota Marty Offline OP

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Things have changed in the finals as far as piano choices are concerned.

Vadym Kholodenko -- C&A-American (Prokofiev) - C&A-Hamburg (Mozart)
Nikita Mndoyants -- VCC-American
Fei-Fei Dong -- VCC-Hamburg
Beatrice Rana -- C&A-Hamburg
Sean Chen -- VCC-Hamburg (Beethoven) - C&A-American (Rachmaninoff)
Tomoki Sakata -- VCC-Hamburg (both concertos)

Last edited by Minnesota Marty; 06/09/13 05:45 PM. Reason: update

Marty in Minnesota

It's much easier to bash a Steinway than it is to play one.
Re: Cliburn Competition Pianos - Comments [Re: Minnesota Marty] #2100768
06/11/13 03:10 AM
06/11/13 03:10 AM
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I bought my Hamburg D new from London Steinway and had it shipped to Decatur, IL and later Lafayette, Louisiana. It produces the most beautiful sound while having the keyboard responsiveness of no other piano. It's brings you the opportunity to play a warm clear sound that is an outstanding match for the Romantic repertoire we all seem to cherish. The Hamburg was also used if I am not mistaken at the Amateur Van Cliburn competition were it seemed to be in demand.


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Re: Cliburn Competition Pianos - Comments [Re: Minnesota Marty] #2101078
06/11/13 05:59 PM
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Marty, I generally share your thorough descriptions of the tonal qualities of the 4 pianos. The only additional comment I would add is that both the Hamburgs exhibited longer sustain in the middle and upper registers than the two NY Steinways.

Re: Cliburn Competition Pianos - Comments [Re: Minnesota Marty] #2101089
06/11/13 06:16 PM
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You guys have much better ears than me because I thought they all sounded about the same. I thought touch was probably the main difference among them.

Re: Cliburn Competition Pianos - Comments [Re: Minnesota Marty] #2101102
06/11/13 06:34 PM
06/11/13 06:34 PM
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Minnesota Marty Offline OP

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Hi Plumpfingers,

I agree with you about the sustain. When great artists, like Kholodenko and Rana are in command with sensitive pedaling, it doesn't seem to detract at all. I believe the difference is due to the very different scale and design of the instruments.

It is interesting that both Rana and Kholodenko chose the pianos provided by Steinway Hall, rather than use the foundation instruments. All four are very different instruments and the difference between Hamburg and NY is very clear.

What was the difference in tonal structure of the piano live vs. the stream? Did the tonal structures broadcast somewhat accurately? Obviously acoustics and balance would be totally different.


Marty in Minnesota

It's much easier to bash a Steinway than it is to play one.
Re: Cliburn Competition Pianos - Comments [Re: Minnesota Marty] #2101280
06/12/13 01:02 AM
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I only listened briefly to a streamed performance so can't give a thorough response as to the difference in the live performances, but one glaring difference was the limited dynamic range in the streaming. Rana especially utilized the dynamic range of the Hamburg to its fullest, but it didn't come through in the streaming.

Re: Cliburn Competition Pianos - Comments [Re: plumpfingers] #2101283
06/12/13 01:13 AM
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Originally Posted by plumpfingers
....Rana especially utilized the dynamic range of the Hamburg to its fullest, but it didn't come through in the streaming.

I guess you mean it didn't come through like it did in the hall, but it did come through. Aspects of her dynamics -- the range, control, and nuance -- immediately struck me and were key things that made me feel immediately that she was a very top contender, and continued impressing me that way throughout.

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