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I have the bad luck of working with brand new steinway Piano,


does anyone think the same?

Actions are not properly fitted,
hammers sound bad
overtones

you name it!

As a pianist, I think the new instruments coming out of NY are much better than they were even five years ago. The newest Steinway I have in my tuning clientele is a model B from the '90s, so I can't comment on working with the new ones.

I agree with Beethoven986 on the new NY instruments. Steinway has more control than ever before on the manufacture of all their components. You should also figure that these instruments need careful preparations after they arrive to their destination. The cabinets components are active and mechanical adjustments need to be finely fit and adjusted to the environment. Many dealers won't have complete prep work done because of the expense but I would do as much as I can then reevaluate the regulation, touch, tone, voice etc. to suit the dealers environment. I have noticed that newer pianos have had a much higher torque tuning pin but with a change in tuning hammer or style of hammer use ultra fine adjustments can be made.

Small adjustments make a big difference whereas other pianos need a larger adjustment to make a small difference.

For example start with the keyframe mating and work your way up. Use S&S key frame clamps or screw down the check blocks when fitting. Check key bushings but don't overdo it. A small amount of friction is always good as the fingers touch will want to be in control. Listen closely and you will hear the movement, adjust as necessary. The list goes on...... Be careful with voicing the hammers (remember small adjustments make a big difference). I usually will just even the attack of tone throughout the scale and I will only change the voice when it is in the clients home with them present. It's amazing how quick the dealer will sell the piano when it has been thoroughly prepared. If your dealer can sponsor you, you should get in line to take the factory technical training.

Mr. Avendano,
If you are seeking advice on service procedures; please name and describe the problem areas more specifically. There are some things I wish Steinway NY would do differently but compared to when I was doing Steinway dealer prep, (1976-1992), you do not know how good you have it now.

Mr. Avenano, please send me a personal email so that I can understand your concern, and put you in touch with someone who will be anxious to talk with you. Your comments are not at all representative of what I hear - so I too am very interested as to the specific nature of your concerns.

Please send me an email.

thank you,

Mr. Avendano - I'm still waiting to hear from you, with details on your bad luck working on a brand new Steinway piano. Please contact me via email, or reply. I'm sure that the others are interested in further details of your bad luck.

I await your reply.

Hello Mr. Snyder,

I don't know if Mr. Avendano ever got back to you, but I would like to follow up on his comment: 'hammers sound bad.'

1) Can you inform how many cycles per note the hammer was pounded on a piano pounding machine, say, for the typical M at the factory before it gets shipped to dealers in USA?

2) Can you inform what the differences are in the hammer wool in that M that got shipped to the dealer and new hammers (as replacement parts) bought by a technician direct from S&S? with respect to:
- application of lacquers/stiffeners, or solvents
- voicing
- pounding
- anything else

3) What do you think are the specific items that might lead a Steinway piano to have better quality sound after the first few years of use (if you can believe that this phenomenon happens... many professionals do).

Thank you very much for your thoughts.

phacke,

The raw hammers are the same whether they are installed in a new Steinway or shipped to a technician as replacement hammers, depending of course on what is ordered.

I can order the hammers pre-lacquered or without this treatment. As to pounding and voicing, these procedures aren't done until the hammer is installed in a piano.



This is not a Steinway thing, it is a piano thing.

As a piano is played the felts and leathers compress a bit and the piano becomes brighter. Some find this more pleasant. Some do not.

This happens regardless of brand, size, or prep. work before the piano is put into service.

Greetings,
Like Rich said, this is a piano thing. Some makes are far more "green" than others, and need a complete going over after the first year.

Most pianists I can remember think brand new pianos are either a little "stiff", or "dark", or even "spongy". This characteristic changes fairly quickly, and along two different scales. The hammers will compact directly under the string contact point, making a brighter tone. Since humans are more sensitive to the higher frequencies, it makes the whole instrument stronger and we perceive that we are getting more sound for the same amount of work, hence, the piano begins to feel "lighter". This effect can be had( with some shortcomings), in an hour with some acetone and plastic solution, or it can come about naturally over a few months of regular play.

The other big change is the action settling down, (as opposed to settling "in"). Actions sag, and as they are played, friction goes down, while the mechanical efficiency begins to decrease. This is because the softness of new leather and felt changes more rapidly when first pressed into service than any other time, and manufacturers don't want to keep inventory around long enough to completely break them in. So, it is up to the customer to educate themselves inre what the instrument's condition actually is.

I think with so much compliance in all that new, soft felt and leather, that there is a noticeable loss of energy transmitted between the finger and the string. These new actions are quiet, but a significant portion of the note's work is spent on compacting felt. As the soft things lose some of that cushion, the action becomes more reactive to input. However, that compaction allows the geometry to move around, and things like erratic blow and jack position make evenness a moot point. The regulation goes away. They naturally become harder to control, and sadly, far too many pianos are left in this shape after the piano lessons stop.


A poorly regulated action with too bright hammers makes for a piano that only allows a modicum of control, and are no fun to play. Try voicing subtle chord work under a melodic line on an action that will bite... They ALL need to be regulated after the first 100 hours of heavy use. Otherwise, the pianist is throwing 30% of their response away, while making everything pianissimo difficult.

Ask your tech about the condition of your regulation.
Regards,

"...As a piano is played the felts and leathers compress a bit and the piano becomes brighter. Some find this more pleasant. Some do not.

"This happens regardless of brand, size, or prep. work before the piano is put into service."

Well said--- even, perfectly said. One could add that the action parts wear or settle slightly, depending on the player's touch. The piano accommodates itself to the way it is played, becoming 'yours.' If your tech is on the ball, the voicing can be slightly adjusted over time, so that the hammers adjust more gracefully and the voice does not become excessively bright; the hammers just develop the character and power that they were designed to have. There are no chemical hardeners or needling techniques that can substitute for this natural maturing and development, which a few years of playing-in bring about.

I notice here, no one has really listened at all to Mr. Avendano. There's a lot of defensive energy, as if it is taboo to say that Steinway's quality might have declined over the years despite 'better quality control'.

If not, who cares? Share your experience or leave it alone.

Is it really necessary to discount someone's opinion with 'helpful' derailing rhetoric because their comment may reduce Steinway's bottom line by a few dollars in the undetermined future?

What Mr. Avendano is talking about has nothing to do with a piano settling in or anything of the sort.

Seems like Mr. Avendano checked out after making some pretty broad and vague statements. After he had been invited to expound and hadn't responded, others took the opportunity to talk about what they wanted.

As piano techs we need to advocate for the industry IMHO. This means (for me) that I think I agree with the replies that ask for more specific info before concluding that Steinway is missing the boat on quality.

FWIW

Rick

Mr. Avendano,

It would certantly be interesting if you could be more specific about the things you point out and even what you have done to solve the problems.
Are you talking about NY or Hamburg pianos?

This topic is arguably the most cyclical of all.

Steinway is a world class grand piano. Have there been a few snafus along the way? Of course. Warranty issues? Yes. What manufacture has not had their share of these. Again, IF dealers will prep these pianos per agreement with Steinway, then usually all ends well. When dealers fail in this responsibility, problems often ensue down the road. In these cases the fault is not Steinway's.

Most local complaints concern Steinway uprights. Not from customers, mind you. From the last techs. The customers simply relay Frustrated Tuners disparaging remarks about this or that - and why they are not coming back to tune. By early 2006 I must have "inherited" everyone of the things in Greater Little Rock. So what was the problem? Quirky? Yes, somewhat. Difficult? At times, yes. Customers were reassured that the S&S upright is a great piano too, and that the "problems" are nothing that a little extra time and patience could not cure.

Hey, guys (and gals) if it was easy, they wouldn't need us.

What IS Mr. Avendeno talking about? Kind of hard to tell. He made broadly disparaging remarks about Steinways and when a Steinway rep offered to look into why he was dissatisfied he vanished. His credibility is not very good to me.

With a loving nod to Mr. Rogers, "Can you say TROLL? I thought you could."

Thank you everyone for your thoughts and comments about hammers (Mr. Galassini, Mr. Foote, Mr. Clef). I believe this combined wisdom gives a very good image of the fundamentals going on. I guess the only original question still open is how much each hammer in a shipping M gets pounded at the factory; a new hammer apparently comes with none at all - I suppose that is not a surprise.

Do you generally buy the pre lacquered replacement hammers or not?

I realize I neglected to write the motivation for my question. I am trying to prioritize possible future upgrades to my old M-style piano. So my motive here is to gather data and understanding to figure the risk vs. reward of a hammer and action parts change out. On the risks side, several places on this Piano World forum (not to mention the OP) and even in a published book, James Barron, "Piano", there is the impression that Steinway and Sons hammers are difficult to voice. That book describes the NY Steinway Hall basement that distributes the circulating Ds complaining that the factory added too much lacquer or the like, and the techs at Steinway Hall have to dissolve some of it back out.

I don't have the experience of playing many spanking brand new pianos. I can say my aunt's new Schimmel grand when new had a warm soft sound. I suppose that is not what Steinway is aiming for (with their hammers?), because I have never heard a (NY) Steinway that I would describe as sounding soft and warm like that Schimmel. A newer looking Steinway B I tried at the store, in fact, sounded like Mr. Foote described: "These new actions are quiet, but a significant portion of the note's work is spent on compacting felt." I guess the wool needs to be packed down a while to get the famous Steinway sound (thus my earlier question about time on the pounding machine, which isn't apparently enough considering Mr. Foote wrote: "manufacturers don't want to keep inventory around long enough to completely break them in." You therefore have to buy--when new--on what it might sound like in the future: risk!).

My existing hammers have been sanded some (I'll measure what's left some day soon to get some quantitative metrics). The technician visit that came some months after this sanding event voiced down any of the shrill sounding hammers. It is still a bright piano, but I can play pianissimo, and the una chorda peddle voices it down further quite well when need be. So, I'm not feeling the immediate need of a hammer change out, but am still gathering data. Bass string change out is probably higher on the list in my opinion. However, the knowledge gained in this thread will be valuable and applied at some future time I am sure.

Mr. Foote wrote: Ask your tech about the condition of your regulation.

Answer Tech 1) Change the bass strings next
Answer Tech 2: rebuild specialist) Because the hammers are worn, you will want to change the hammers. Because the action is old, you will want to change shank, flange, repetition assemblies too while you are at it. (I will attempt a full voicing first however--not tried yet and much less costly.)

Thank you very much again for all your thoughts and answers above in this thread,

Regards -

For a FACT, all Steinways are not created equally! For instance, I ended up servicing a Steinway "D" this afternoon for a university. This was a Steinway from heck!!(mind you, I am not the regular piano tech for this instrument), but what normally would take an hour or so to tune, took a whole 2 hours. The damn pin block kept shifting on me, and while I have learned to deal with situations like this, it's just frustrating cause it takes so much time to fight this flaw in the piano. I love tuning Steinways grands, but I gotta tell you, this particular Steinway ATE my lunch.

Hello Mr. Fowler,

Bummer, are you sure that it wasn't a badly rebuilt pinblock in there? That sounds like an outlier. Pro rebuilders and users alike have told me the wrestplank is something that Steinway got right. Offer to rebuild it if you are in that line of work, everyone will be better off.

Regards -