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Patronizing sentences? I complimented the poster, and then said the performance had a lot of potential, but could of course be improved, as could just about any performance by anyone, at any time...
I didn't think my tone was too negative in any individual comment, except maybe a couple - the problem seems to me to be that there was too much criticism and not enough encouragement.

Temperature seem a bit above average, a touch on the high side.

Sounded fantastic. I do think recording device could be better but the playing sounded great.

Polyphonist, you seem to have trouble judging how your own writing might be received by the person to whom your writing is addressed (as well as how it might effect the wider audience of readers on this world stage). After listing your critical points, your two concluding sentences drip with condescension that borders on disdain. You might as well have said, "C-. Please have your add/drop slip ready after class." I mean, how would you like it if someone said to you, "Your tweed jacket exudes the smell of stale pipe tobacco."

You know, we're all free to write what we want to write and say what we want to say, but the matter of looking for clues in the original post as to what kind of criticism (and how much) is desired in response to a given recording has been discussed at length several times, even recently. It is an interesting question to consider. Perhaps the topic needs to be revisited in a new thread?

--Andy

Yes, you did "compliment the poster", but more in the manner of a "pat on the head".

If you need an example of how to do it right, follow Dame Myra. Her tone is perfect. She suggests rather than dictates, she praises what she likes, she inquires instead of presuming to know. For example, when comparing the two passages that were played differently, she doesn't automatically assume inconsistency, but asks, "Was that a choice?" Her tone is "collegial", (i.e. she considers the real possibility of interpretive differences), rather than "superior", which connotes more of a teacher-student relationship.

You contribute a lot of good stuff to this forum, Polyphonist, so please keep doing it! But if you could modulate your tone just a wee bit, you'll be far more persuasive.

Well, Joel, it looks like a number of people besides me believe he or she did.


It's called 'damning with faint praise', and I wonder if the motivation is sheer jealousy (as was hinted at in Polyphony's similarly abrasive 'review' of Islamey recently). And as was also pointed out in that thread, there's a credibility gap when you have the chutzpah to make so many detailed negative remarks but no one knows your own credentials and you've never posted a recording of your own.

To those who think P. has made some great contributions here - where are they amongst 1550 posts (and counting) over a mere three months? That's nearly TWENTY posts a day - and the majority, from what I've seen, have been superfluous and gratuitious and unhelpful one-liners bordering on trolling.

When I was new, one of my first posts was about Op. 52. P. invited interested parties to discuss it with him. I took the bait, and ... nothing. When reminded, s/he sent me a message saying 'Well?' I replied with several paragraphs, carefully thought out, asking a bit about him or her, revealing a bit about myself, and then wrote of my observations and issues in learning Op. 52. In return for my good-faith efforts to communicate in a cordial manner with a stranger who was also a newbie here? I got a reply of TWO SENTENCES. Just sayin' - something isn't kosher here. Plenty of people can talk a good talk, but B.S. walks and and I'm putting P. on that Ignore thingie.

G.P.

I assure you that I am not jealous of anyone on this site, nor will I ever be. And here we are again with the logical fallacy that you must post a recording of your own in order to critique someone else's.


I was indeed interested in discussing Opus 52 - apparently the same can't be said for you. I sent you a short post to clarify a few of the things you'd said in your original message, and you promptly removed yourself from the thread. Looking back, I'm indeed glad I didn't waste my time writing a long and detailed response to someone like you.


Wonderful. Please do it as soon as possible.

This is the text of the private message I sent Polyphony about Op. 52.


In response, I got an answer to whether he or she was working on other pieces ('Yes') and a question about that octave passage from bar 38 to 45 ('What fingering are you using?). That was it. Nothing more. Zilch.

So this, from someone who actually solicited a discussion of this piece? Yeah right.

Did you ever consider replying to my questions, and then I might have given you a more detailed response?

Could you block me already, please, and stop messing up the OP's thread?

I really find it a very curious exercise and perhaps somewhat disturbing that some feel it necessary to derail the thread by telling another what s/he should or should not say to the original poster and also how s/he should say it.

Exactly - it really wasn't any of his business in the first place.

Anyway, back to the OP's performance - I've just listened to it again, and I think I still agree with most of my original comments - however, I think I got a more positive overall impression this time around than I did last time I listened, when I made the original critique (and I already thought it was pretty good last time).

Interesting how Jaak didn't ask for "feedback" in his original post. Nor has he engaged in any subsequent dialog.

If an OP says "suggestions for improvement are welcome" then we should definitely feel free to provide them. But why must we ASSUME that anyone posting a recording here is seeking such criticism - constructive or otherwise?? Sometimes folks just want to share their work ...and that's OK.

Well... we're a 'family' over here, so when someone posts, we do tend to assume that they are looking for feedback. Especially when a recording is coming shortly and not already done!

It would be hugely different if Jaak was to post "here's my commercial CD, available here and there". But as it stands I think it's reasonable to assume that he is looking for feedback

This was my thinking as well.

Yes. As Carey has said, a huge dysfunctional one.



And no, we don't all assume that. In my opinion, it is an unfair assumption. We've discussed this before, about the etiquette. Opinions vary, as always. Here are some guidelines I like to use, having learned as I go by watching the Member Recordings sub-forum develop, and after being on the giving and receiving end of things, as well as witnessing some unfortunate and messy thread wrecks:

1. If someone posts a recital recording and does not ask for critiques, I treat it like a recital and celebrate the accomplishment.

2. If someone posts a pre-recital recording and does not ask for critiques, same thing. Good luck. Break a leg. If he or she *does* ask for critiques, then a number of things come into play. How long before the recital? Enough time to make significant changes? Critique. Not enough time? Good luck. Break a leg. (I attribute this point to Mark_C.)

3. If someone posts a work-in-progress, and does not ask for critiques, be careful and ask, "Would you accept critique?"

4. If someone posts a work-in-progress, and does ask for critiques, it's open season. And then, as Dame Myra said, be collegial.

I remember one of my first "critiques" of a recording posted by Deburcey. He was working on some Beethoven. Basically, I came into the thread a burped in his face. If I could take that post back, I certainly would. It was arrogant and rude. Debrucy "forgave me," but I learned an important lesson regarding contrition and temperance.



Hard to tell on this one, Nikolas, though Jaak is such a gracious professional and natural teacher that were he to post a reply to the critiques, it would be to appreciate the feedback and answer the critiques, letting people know about his artistic decisions. My understanding of Jaak's approach is that he probably never considers a piece to be "finished" or "fully mastered," and that a review of a performance is *always* part of the game. Still...

Maybe Jaak knows us better than we think, and he put his hat on a stick for us to shoot at, so that when he posts his studio recording, we can all behave and give him a tidy thread.



The way I read it, Bruce, some of us were hoping for a teachable moment regarding diction. It seems to have gotten out of hand!

--Andy

carey and Cinnamonbear, I too had always assumed that the purpose of posting a recording was to solicit critiques, comments, etc. But after reading the OP, there is zero indication that Jaak is soliciting anything. He's simply presenting. Thanks for the perspective, guys.

Well... a family with some 100,000 members MUST be utterly dysfunctional indeed!



And no, we don't all assume that. In my opinion, it is an unfair assumption. [/quote]I'm not sure it is unfair or who assumes that. Obviously since I mentioned the word "family" I went for the "we" part of the post. It was a bit forward of me to mention that, but I hope this explains it.

On the etiquette I remember the thread and I do think that with the exception of PP my comments are almost always well received. It's the how you put things.



Hard to tell on this one, Nikolas, though Jaak is such a gracious professional and natural teacher that were he to post a reply to the critiques, it would be to appreciate the feedback and answer the critiques, letting people know about his artistic decisions. My understanding of Jaak's approach is that he probably never considers a piece to be "finished" or "fully mastered," and that a review of a performance is *always* part of the game. Still...[/quote]Remember that I'm someone who semi-frequently goes about posting commercial comments, posts, succeeded, finished results, etc. And I HAVE BEEN annoyed at silly comments over something that wasn't supposed to receive that... That's my point.

Jaak's post didn't come across as anything, to be honest. It just came as "here it is, do as you please". And the fact that he's not posted, implies that it wasn't all too important (especially if a studio recoding is coming up in a couple of weeks). In all truth, I can't think of another reason to post this, rather than receive feedback. Why else?

I don't think it got out of hand. Exactly because I'm not sure it holds great value for Jaak. If it does, I'm deeply sorry and I'll be very ready to say that my assumptions were wrong and ask for my posts to be deleted if so, but otherwise it seems like a rather casual thread an it's good that we're discussing these things out in the open.

PS. I'm certainly not found of the negative tone in most of Polyphonists' posts of courrse! I hope this is clear. This and the previous post of mine is not coming to back him up about this...

I think we've exhausted the negative tone issue...I get the point. No need to perseverate.

Here's a link to the last post Jaak made in Members Recordings - back in November 2011. Note that his initial post was very similar to one in this thread (i.e., presenting mode). The responses he received were "general" and supportive - and Jaak chose to further engage in the dialog.

I'm not implying that we should "sugar coat" our comments to people who post their work here - but perhaps with folks we don't know all that well we should first try to engage in a dialog to learn more about them and determine how receptive they might be to our CONSTRUCTIVE criticism.

https://www.pianoworld.com/forum/ubb...d%20Fugue%20No.%2021%20.html#Post1782982

I still feel that detailed and specific commentary, negative or positive, is much more helpful than a rather vague "Amazing performance! I loved it! You play this so well" - except for boosting the ego of the poster.

If you're saying your original post in this thread was OK, you still don't get it.