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Over Phone Recording

Lots of issues swirling here ... law, economics of the industry, and also personality.

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Despite the fact that he's always acting too strongly, he's utterly right in this case! Phones are pissing on the artists, the industry... everything!

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He was out of line.

He should have just gone out there, ripped the phone out of the guy's hands, and thrown it out the window. grin

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Originally Posted by Nikolas
Despite the fact that he's always acting too strongly, he's utterly right in this case! Phones are pissing on the artists, the industry... everything!

But do you agree with what he said when he returned to stage?: ""The destruction of music because of YouTube is enormous."

-J

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Yes, for quite a few reasons.

I won't go into the money side of it, but on the ethical side of it: A concert is something unique that some people watch. It can go bad, it can go great... The artist HAS a right to protect his/her image after a concert: Would you like it if on your weakest moment you were video taped and brought into the light, so that no one will ever forget?

Then it's the matter of uniqueness that I mentioned above. A recital is an one time experience. If you video tape it, you're not, obviously copying the experience, but you are offering (for free and in the comfort of the users bed/toilet/couch/wherever) the "postcard" of that experience. And this can translates into this: "postcard recital" = not interesting, thus "real recital" = not interesting, and if "postcard recital" = free and not interesting why "real recital" = so much money and still not interesting?

As a society (globally) we're loosing our social instincts to that of the computer screen and the Internet! We keep forgetting how a recital, a concert, going to the movies is a social event most of all! and we don't care to fix that!

So, yes, I agree with him, even if for different reasons obviously!

HUGE EDIT: At the same time the service that youtube is providing to so many people is invaluable... I would never ever want youtube to go away. I would like those *ahem* to stop filming unauthorized stuff!

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I've discovered countless musicians and musical pieces by watching youtube videos. I don't know if I would have become familiar with half the rep that I have if not for Youtube. However, I can sympathize with Zimerman here to some extent!



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Originally Posted by Nikolas
HUGE EDIT: At the same time the service that youtube is providing to so many people is invaluable... I would never ever want youtube to go away. I would like those *ahem* to stop filming unauthorized stuff!


Whew, I'm glad you added that. I was about to say something snarky! grin

The destruction of music because of YouTube? I guess Zimerman just annoys me. There is something characteristic about people who go over the top so easily; people whose demeanor and ways of expressing themselves just ooze "me and my views are so obviously right and ethically superior. And I can vent at you too."

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Originally Posted by Nikolas
Yes, for quite a few reasons.

I won't go into the money side of it, but on the ethical side of it: A concert is something unique that some people watch...

I agree with your points, and I do think Zimerman has valid criticism about recording concerts. I'm just wondering about whether you really agree with his strong overall statement that YouTube contributes to "the *destruction* of music". It seems to me that YouTube does a tremendous amount of good in music (say, specifically, in classical) as well as, perhaps, a tremendous amount of bad. In mathematics, infinity - infinity is undefined, but I'm wondering how YouTube's large positive and negative contributions balance out in your view.

-Jason

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Problem is, YouTube has never stopped me from buying the CD/Record, or concert ticket....The opposite just in fact. Don't know how many times, even with famous pianists. I have decided to go to concerts because of what I have seen on YouTube.

Bootlegging concerts is not a new thing. It didn't destroy music before, I don't think it will now.

As for the contract issues...Sounds more like the executives problem. We do still live in a world where most of the classical records are the same pieces and symphonies over and over(nothing wrong with that I like getting to buy a new Emperor Concerto when I can). It is just once again, we already live in a world where things have already been done, and people still get their recording contracts today. Is it possible that maybe Zimerman is now a liability. This is not the first time he has done this in concerts. Like the the very long debate about him not playing in the U.S. Even if he is right...he goes about it in a way that alienates fans. Also, there are many just as talented musicians, ready to step up, who are better with the public.

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Originally Posted by beet31425
Originally Posted by Nikolas
Yes, for quite a few reasons.

I won't go into the money side of it, but on the ethical side of it: A concert is something unique that some people watch...

I agree with your points, and I do think Zimerman has valid criticism about recording concerts. I'm just wondering about whether you really agree with his strong overall statement that YouTube contributes to "the *destruction* of music". It seems to me that YouTube does a tremendous amount of good in music (say, specifically, in classical) as well as, perhaps, a tremendous amount of bad. In mathematics, infinity - infinity is undefined, but I'm wondering how YouTube's large positive and negative contributions balance out in your view.

-Jason
I think that one really needs to look at it from a lot of different views...

For me personally youtube is a great tool: I create videos, which help me promote my work! Simple as that! They are a direct advertising tool, and not a monetizing tool yet.

For a professional who has tons of CDs out, youtube is a lost revenue (though uncertain on what kind of loss we're talking about here).

For the industry big guys it's destructive, but they can't help it anymore.

BUT! For the above points I made, I do think that it's quite dangerous and it's a driving force to alienation ultimately. And I've had this discussion a little while ago with teachers who were feeling that their students recently appear to be 'inactive' in terms of feelings in the music! "How can they be playing the moonlight and not feel a thing?". Once I explained "my" theory to them it seemed to make sense to them, and I honestly think that there's a breaking point not far away from now that will happen. already a recording is considered of non value (just look at the prices dropping), so next the arts will follow eventually...

(Yup, I woke up on the pessimistic side of the bed today! grin)

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Originally Posted by beet31425
Originally Posted by Nikolas
Yes, for quite a few reasons.

I won't go into the money side of it, but on the ethical side of it: A concert is something unique that some people watch...

I agree with your points, and I do think Zimerman has valid criticism about recording concerts. I'm just wondering about whether you really agree with his strong overall statement that YouTube contributes to "the *destruction* of music". It seems to me that YouTube does a tremendous amount of good in music (say, specifically, in classical) as well as, perhaps, a tremendous amount of bad. In mathematics, infinity - infinity is undefined, but I'm wondering how YouTube's large positive and negative contributions balance out in your view.

-Jason
I think Zimerman's point is about unauthorized YouTube postings of performances.

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Obviously, I know something about You Tube recording. And, having experienced rock music in the 70's, 80' and 90's, un-authorized bootleg recordings is also something I have significant knowledge of.

The bottom line is that proper decorum at performances has gone through all sorts of changes starting with the very first classical concerts where audience members regularly talked while the artist was playing and sometimes even started applauding before a piece was finished. Furthermore, it was expected that you would clap between movements of sonatas, concertos, and symphonies, in order to show your approval. They darn sure do it with Lang Lang.

Rubinstein used to just sit there until you could hear a pin drop before he played. Brendel even has a trick where he deliberately coughs between movements or pieces, which gets the whole audience coughing and that usually shuts them up from there on.

You Tube recording of concerts is here to stay and there is nothing Krystian Zimerman can do about it. If Herr Zimerman had an ounce of sense, he would record every performance and post them himself on You Tube just like some bleached blond recently has, who has made herself famous (and rich) in the process.

Mr. Zimerman obviously has never been to a performance of the Nutcracker where the audiences are a zoo, when it comes to behavior.

Now, for those absolute purists, if you want to spend the money, just go out and buy yourself a jammer, and nobody's cell phone will work at all. The entire downtown section of Boston just experienced this technology the hard way. Nobody could call in or out after the bombing.

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I go to LOTS of piano recitals by the great and the good (and even the not-so-good grin). Zimerman is the only one who attracts an entourage (especially Polish) who insists on sneakily videoing him in concert - I witnessed this last time he played in London (during the Chopin bicentenary). He kept looking up at someone in the audience during the first half while playing (but without stopping), and I believe that person was removed before the second half...

I'm not blaming him, but I think part of the reason is because he doesn't record the core repertoire that he plays: the Chopin Sonatas for instance. He's even refused permission for DG to re-release his Chopin Waltzes, for example.

Whereas Pollini, Argerich etc have left us lots of recordings over the years. Why bother to video them?


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Good evening. Zimmerman was right to react strongly. It is expremely rude to hold up a device and aim it at the artist during a concert. Apparently Zimmerman asked the person in question to stop. I don't see it as venting at all, he was distracted by this creep and lost his temper. Well done!

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Originally Posted by Louis Podesta
If Herr Zimerman ...


Do you realize that Zimerman is not German?

Last edited by landorrano; 06/05/13 02:32 PM.
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There's a brilliant young researcher and TED speaker, Amber Case, who makes the argument that humans are all becoming cyborgs now. The contention is that the ubiquitous electronic/digital tools we all use are extending our powers and our reach, and even our relationships with time and space. Here's the TED talk:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z1KJAXM3xYA

This thread presents a subset of the issues Case raises. Video cameras became small and user-friendly twenty years ago, and since then the ability to make video recordings has only progressed, to the point where video recording has dramatically enhanced our ability to see and to store video records.

It's now only a matter of time -- not much time -- before millions of people will be wearing things like Google Glasses that will be virtually indistinguishable from standard eyewear, that will permit video recording and storage of anything we can see and hear before us.

When that happens, what will the Zimermans of the world do?

If they're smart, they'll recognize (as Louis Podesta suggests), that this tide is coming in whether they like it or not and develop strategies to make progress work for them rather than viewing it as inimical.


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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SCzabFlmIlQ

Love him or hate him, Zimerman's personal standard is extremely high, to the point that his last released solo recording (unless I'm wrong) was 1990. Listen to the interview linked above and it is easily seen why youtube would be a huge problem for him. On the level of his philosophy of music and high standard, he is absolutely right.


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Originally Posted by Louis Podesta
....he would record every performance and post them himself on You Tube just like some bleached blond recently has, who has made herself famous (and rich) in the process.


Oh my gosh - she really isn't a blond?????


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Originally Posted by carey
Originally Posted by Louis Podesta
....he would record every performance and post them himself on You Tube just like some bleached blond recently has, who has made herself famous (and rich) in the process.


Oh my gosh - she really isn't a blond?????


I guess it is just sad he is not finding ways to make it work for him.

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Originally Posted by pianoloverus
Originally Posted by beet31425
Originally Posted by Nikolas
Yes, for quite a few reasons.

I won't go into the money side of it, but on the ethical side of it: A concert is something unique that some people watch...

I agree with your points, and I do think Zimerman has valid criticism about recording concerts. I'm just wondering about whether you really agree with his strong overall statement that YouTube contributes to "the *destruction* of music". It seems to me that YouTube does a tremendous amount of good in music (say, specifically, in classical) as well as, perhaps, a tremendous amount of bad. In mathematics, infinity - infinity is undefined, but I'm wondering how YouTube's large positive and negative contributions balance out in your view.

-Jason
I think Zimerman's point is about unauthorized YouTube postings of performances.


I'm sure it is.

So take it all: unauthorized and authorized. Does YouTube do more good for the classical world, or more bad? Is it close, or is it a lot more good or a lot more bad? I really don't know.

-J

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