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Re: Another picture of Chopin? [Re: JoelW] #2091909
05/30/13 03:14 AM
05/30/13 03:14 AM
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 6,546
UK
Nikolas Offline
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Originally Posted by JoelW
There are a few reasons why I feel this isn't the case:

1) To photoshop the actual angle of Chopin's face would be a very unusual and I assume difficult edit.

2) What is the motive for photoshopping such a photo in that way?

3) Look at the photo's top and bottom edges. See the wear? This isn't just an online picture, this is an actually physical photograph.
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Re: Another picture of Chopin? [Re: JoelW] #2091962
05/30/13 07:46 AM
05/30/13 07:46 AM
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 5,921
SC Mountains
-Frycek Offline
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Originally Posted by JoelW
I see. Who is Mary-Ros Douglas? I can't find anything about her.




1. British civil servant

2. UK Breeder of champion Norwegian forest cats

3. Lifelong Chopin lover and player, occasionally found here on the Totally Devoted thread, posting as MaryRose

4. And more to the point, photoshopper extraordinare. She did
this one awhile back. Trying, I think to erase some of the
effects of his illness, portraying him as he might've been
on a better day. Good, isn't she?



Slow down and do it right.
[Linked Image]
Re: Another picture of Chopin? [Re: JoelW] #2092342
05/30/13 05:50 PM
05/30/13 05:50 PM
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 2,047
Minneapolis, Minnesota
tomasino Offline
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tomasino  Offline
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Originally Posted by JoelW
Originally Posted by tomasino
Polyphonist,

I did a quick search of Chopin images and came up with quite a few different croppings of what appears to be the same image, and the photo you're showing can be explained as the most extreme crop of all, of the same image. The more you crop into the image, the softer and less sharp the image will be. There are other possible explanations too--someone attempted to make a copy of the original image and didn't properly focus the copy camera? Could be. At any rate, I don't believe it is a different image from the same shoot, or a new, heretofore unknown image.

Tomasino


Sorry but I don't think this explains it at all. There is a CLEAR difference between these two photos.

The head seems to be slightly angled differently and look at the mouth. It's a dead giveaway.

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]


You may be on to something with the mouth, as there is an unexplained shadow coming up from the left side of his mouth (his left). But there are still other explanations for that one detail--perhaps were looking at a photo made from a copy neg--which I believe to be the case--and a bit of dark fuzz or something, or anything dropped onto the photo being copied, or there was damage to the copy neg during development or subsequent handling. There are any number of other things that might give rise to this detail.

As to the angle of his head, I'm not quite sure what you're seeing, unless it's maybe that his head in the shot that is cropped at mid-chest, is canted just so slightly clockwise (clockwise to the viewer). I'd have to get a square out to see if that is really happening. But anyway, if it's from a copy neg--again, as I suspect it is--it would have been very easy to cause the change in angle by slightly turning the picture being copied. Such a turning could have even happened by accident.

As to what someone above referred to as "wear marks" along the edges, there are numerous causes for these, all supporting the idea that the image is from a copy neg. The lines along the right and left side are very typical of marks left by abrasion, or touching, or the masking of a 4X5 film holder, no matter what type of film is being used. But the marks along the bottom? I'll go even further. It looks like the kind of imperfect development one gets using Poloroid type 55 positive/negative film when the film is either old or cold. Also, the horizontal lines across the top look very much like the lines left by a Poloroid 4X5 holder when the Poloroid type 55 film isn't pulled out evenly and quickly. I've seen it a hundred times. The usual tell tale signature of Poloroid type 55 that fine art photographers love to include--the little mesh holes across the top edge--was probably cropped off, as intended by the Poloroid Corporation.

Style is another reason I believe this is from a copy neg. The style of cropping in the 1830s and 40s was often full body, or from the waist or mid-torso up. The very tight head shot came into its own quite a bit later. Also, think about what the photographer would have had to go through in Chopin's time to produce such a tight head shot. He would have had to laboriously frame the tight head shot, using a very cumbersome and heavy wooden tripod, and then attempt to force focus his camera when his bellows simply wouldn't allow for it, and then wasting an expensive piece of photographic material on a picture he knew would not be in the style of his times, nor would it be, could it be, sharp--I'll admit, this last objection would be a possible explanation for why it is so very soft in focus.

For all of these reasons, I believe this photo is from a rather inept copy neg made on Poloroid type 55 positive/negative film. It would have been sometime after, say, 1975, as this film was introduced about that time or later. All sans photoshop.

Tomasino




"Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do so with all thy might." Ecclesiastes 9:10

Re: Another picture of Chopin? [Re: tomasino] #2092371
05/30/13 06:42 PM
05/30/13 06:42 PM
Joined: Apr 2013
Posts: 208
Goomer Piles Offline
Full Member
Goomer Piles  Offline
Full Member

Joined: Apr 2013
Posts: 208
Originally Posted by tomasino
Originally Posted by JoelW
Originally Posted by tomasino
Polyphonist,

I did a quick search of Chopin images and came up with quite a few different croppings of what appears to be the same image, and the photo you're showing can be explained as the most extreme crop of all, of the same image. The more you crop into the image, the softer and less sharp the image will be. There are other possible explanations too--someone attempted to make a copy of the original image and didn't properly focus the copy camera? Could be. At any rate, I don't believe it is a different image from the same shoot, or a new, heretofore unknown image.

Tomasino


Sorry but I don't think this explains it at all. There is a CLEAR difference between these two photos.

The head seems to be slightly angled differently and look at the mouth. It's a dead giveaway.

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]


You may be on to something with the mouth, as there is an unexplained shadow coming up from the left side of his mouth (his left). But there are still other explanations for that one detail--perhaps were looking at a photo made from a copy neg--which I believe to be the case--and a bit of dark fuzz or something, or anything dropped onto the photo being copied, or there was damage to the copy neg during development or subsequent handling. There are any number of other things that might give rise to this detail.

As to the angle of his head, I'm not quite sure what you're seeing, unless it's maybe that his head in the shot that is cropped at mid-chest, is canted just so slightly clockwise (clockwise to the viewer). I'd have to get a square out to see if that is really happening. But anyway, if it's from a copy neg--again, as I suspect it is--it would have been very easy to cause the change in angle by slightly turning the picture being copied. Such a turning could have even happened by accident.

As to what someone above referred to as "wear marks" along the edges, there are numerous causes for these, all supporting the idea that the image is from a copy neg. The lines along the right and left side are very typical of marks left by abrasion, or touching, or the masking of a 4X5 film holder, no matter what type of film is being used. But the marks along the bottom? I'll go even further. It looks like the kind of imperfect development one gets using Poloroid type 55 positive/negative film when the film is either old or cold. Also, the horizontal lines across the top look very much like the lines left by a Poloroid 4X5 holder when the Poloroid type 55 film isn't pulled out evenly and quickly. I've seen it a hundred times. The usual tell tale signature of Poloroid type 55 that fine art photographers love to include--the little mesh holes across the top edge--was probably cropped off, as intended by the Poloroid Corporation.

Style is another reason I believe this is from a copy neg. The style of cropping in the 1830s and 40s was often full body, or from the waist or mid-torso up. The very tight head shot came into its own quite a bit later. Also, think about what the photographer would have had to go through in Chopin's time to produce such a tight head shot. He would have had to laboriously frame the tight head shot, using a very cumbersome and heavy wooden tripod, and then attempt to force focus his camera when his bellows simply wouldn't allow for it, and then wasting an expensive piece of photographic material on a picture he knew would not be in the style of his times, nor would it be, could it be, sharp--I'll admit, this last objection would be a possible explanation for why it is so very soft in focus.

For all of these reasons, I believe this photo is from a rather inept copy neg made on Poloroid type 55 positive/negative film. It would have been sometime after, say, 1975, as this film was introduced about that time or later. All sans photoshop.

Tomasino

Five paragraphs that deny Photoshopping, even after the explanation was already given? Wow!

Re: Another picture of Chopin? [Re: Goomer Piles] #2092387
05/30/13 07:45 PM
05/30/13 07:45 PM
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 6,661
D
Damon Offline
6000 Post Club Member
Damon  Offline
6000 Post Club Member
D

Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 6,661
Originally Posted by Goomer Piles

Five paragraphs that deny Photoshopping, even after the explanation was already given? Wow!


I think it was Photo Impacted.

Re: Another picture of Chopin? [Re: tomasino] #2092506
05/30/13 11:00 PM
05/30/13 11:00 PM
Joined: May 2012
Posts: 6,177
JoelW Offline OP
6000 Post Club Member
JoelW  Offline OP
6000 Post Club Member

Joined: May 2012
Posts: 6,177
Originally Posted by tomasino
Originally Posted by JoelW
Originally Posted by tomasino
Polyphonist,

I did a quick search of Chopin images and came up with quite a few different croppings of what appears to be the same image, and the photo you're showing can be explained as the most extreme crop of all, of the same image. The more you crop into the image, the softer and less sharp the image will be. There are other possible explanations too--someone attempted to make a copy of the original image and didn't properly focus the copy camera? Could be. At any rate, I don't believe it is a different image from the same shoot, or a new, heretofore unknown image.

Tomasino


Sorry but I don't think this explains it at all. There is a CLEAR difference between these two photos.

The head seems to be slightly angled differently and look at the mouth. It's a dead giveaway.

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]


You may be on to something with the mouth, as there is an unexplained shadow coming up from the left side of his mouth (his left). But there are still other explanations for that one detail--perhaps were looking at a photo made from a copy neg--which I believe to be the case--and a bit of dark fuzz or something, or anything dropped onto the photo being copied, or there was damage to the copy neg during development or subsequent handling. There are any number of other things that might give rise to this detail.

As to the angle of his head, I'm not quite sure what you're seeing, unless it's maybe that his head in the shot that is cropped at mid-chest, is canted just so slightly clockwise (clockwise to the viewer). I'd have to get a square out to see if that is really happening. But anyway, if it's from a copy neg--again, as I suspect it is--it would have been very easy to cause the change in angle by slightly turning the picture being copied. Such a turning could have even happened by accident.

As to what someone above referred to as "wear marks" along the edges, there are numerous causes for these, all supporting the idea that the image is from a copy neg. The lines along the right and left side are very typical of marks left by abrasion, or touching, or the masking of a 4X5 film holder, no matter what type of film is being used. But the marks along the bottom? I'll go even further. It looks like the kind of imperfect development one gets using Poloroid type 55 positive/negative film when the film is either old or cold. Also, the horizontal lines across the top look very much like the lines left by a Poloroid 4X5 holder when the Poloroid type 55 film isn't pulled out evenly and quickly. I've seen it a hundred times. The usual tell tale signature of Poloroid type 55 that fine art photographers love to include--the little mesh holes across the top edge--was probably cropped off, as intended by the Poloroid Corporation.

Style is another reason I believe this is from a copy neg. The style of cropping in the 1830s and 40s was often full body, or from the waist or mid-torso up. The very tight head shot came into its own quite a bit later. Also, think about what the photographer would have had to go through in Chopin's time to produce such a tight head shot. He would have had to laboriously frame the tight head shot, using a very cumbersome and heavy wooden tripod, and then attempt to force focus his camera when his bellows simply wouldn't allow for it, and then wasting an expensive piece of photographic material on a picture he knew would not be in the style of his times, nor would it be, could it be, sharp--I'll admit, this last objection would be a possible explanation for why it is so very soft in focus.

For all of these reasons, I believe this photo is from a rather inept copy neg made on Poloroid type 55 positive/negative film. It would have been sometime after, say, 1975, as this film was introduced about that time or later. All sans photoshop.

Tomasino




How would you explain the left side of his mouth angled more upwards? And look at the left side of his hair, it's shaped differently. I guess photoshop can do this but I don't see any motive. Oh well.

Re: Another picture of Chopin? [Re: JoelW] #2092507
05/30/13 11:04 PM
05/30/13 11:04 PM
Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 6,453
Land of the never-ending music
ChopinAddict Offline
6000 Post Club Member
ChopinAddict  Offline
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Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 6,453
Land of the never-ending music
Mary-Rose wanted Chopin to be pain-free and happier, that's why the left side of his mouth is angled more upwards...



[Linked Image]

Music is my best friend.


Re: Another picture of Chopin? [Re: JoelW] #2092521
05/30/13 11:32 PM
05/30/13 11:32 PM
Joined: May 2009
Posts: 623
B
boo1234 Offline
500 Post Club Member
boo1234  Offline
500 Post Club Member
B

Joined: May 2009
Posts: 623
Originally Posted by JoelW
Originally Posted by tomasino
Polyphonist,

I did a quick search of Chopin images and came up with quite a few different croppings of what appears to be the same image, and the photo you're showing can be explained as the most extreme crop of all, of the same image. The more you crop into the image, the softer and less sharp the image will be. There are other possible explanations too--someone attempted to make a copy of the original image and didn't properly focus the copy camera? Could be. At any rate, I don't believe it is a different image from the same shoot, or a new, heretofore unknown image.

Tomasino


Sorry but I don't think this explains it at all. There is a CLEAR difference between these two photos.

The head seems to be slightly angled differently and look at the mouth. It's a dead giveaway.

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]



It's the same image... if you superimpose the sepia color image on top of the black and white in photoshop, you can scale it down and it fits exactly... look, I changed the opacity of the sepia color image and scaled it down to fit the well known photo:

[Linked Image]

Uploaded with ImageShack.us


notice how it looks like I just simply scaled the image down and put it onto the original... In fact I actually changed the opacity of the top layer to about 45% so you can see the bottom original picture through it. Except since they are a complete match, it looks like the top picture is complete with 100% opacity. There was no need for image rotation either to get a perfect match, which suggests that it is indeed the same picture but cropped since it would be almost impossible for that to happen in 2 separate photo sittings.

Last edited by boo1234; 05/30/13 11:33 PM.
Re: Another picture of Chopin? [Re: JoelW] #2092584
05/31/13 01:40 AM
05/31/13 01:40 AM
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 5,921
SC Mountains
-Frycek Offline
5000 Post Club Member
-Frycek  Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 5,921
SC Mountains
Thank you boo! It's amazing. Several of us recognized it, knew exactly who did it, when, why and how and stated this plainly. MaryRose modified it from the 1849 dag and shared it with Elene and me several years ago. ChopinAddict even posted a link to Elene's blog (where it's clearly identified as MaryRose's) from which it apparently spread to the net. And ya'll are still going on about it. Is this how internet myths /urban legends are started?

MaryRose is having computer access challenges currently but I've let her know. Hopefully, she'll claim it sometime this weekend.


Slow down and do it right.
[Linked Image]
Re: Another picture of Chopin? [Re: JoelW] #2092608
05/31/13 02:14 AM
05/31/13 02:14 AM
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 1,453
Land of Enchantment
Elene Offline
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Elene  Offline
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Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 1,453
Land of Enchantment
Hi, all--

Frycek alerted me to this just now. I don't know whether to laugh or... well, something. The image in question is indeed Mary-Rose's altered version of the 1849 photo, in which she attempted to put our Fryderyk back into a rather better state of health and happiness. I think ChopinAddict's comment was exactly right.

I find this piece of art quite beautiful, especially since he appears to be looking at us through a mist or veil, which seems to me to express the many uncertainties we have about him. It also seems very alive and in motion, as if he is just about to speak.

I don't know what to make of the fact that there was apparently a link to my blog, which distinctly states that the picture was made by Mary-Rose (who is a long-time denizen of the "Devoted to Chopin" thread, less active lately), and yet you didn't look there for information. Right under Mary-Rose's portrait is a shot of Clésinger’s bust based on the death mask, which is why googling "Chopin death mask" yielded this image.

So some of you have been arguing passionately about nothing. (And spelling "Polaroid" wrong in the process.)

I've noticed that googling images can lead one in some very strange directions.

The original blog post: Fryc in Print

Elene

Re: Another picture of Chopin? [Re: JoelW] #2093423
06/01/13 03:48 PM
06/01/13 03:48 PM
Joined: Apr 2013
Posts: 208
Goomer Piles Offline
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Posts: 208
And this thread comes to a screeching halt as the know-it-alls retreat in silent embarrassment!

Re: Another picture of Chopin? [Re: Elene] #2093435
06/01/13 04:05 PM
06/01/13 04:05 PM
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 9,435
Phoenix, Arizona
Carey Offline
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Carey  Offline
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Joined: May 2005
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Phoenix, Arizona
Originally Posted by Elene
So some of you have been arguing passionately about nothing.


Seems to happen a lot around here !!! grin


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Re: Another picture of Chopin? [Re: Carey] #2093549
06/01/13 06:47 PM
06/01/13 06:47 PM
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 3,919
Chicago, IL USA
Palindrome Offline
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Palindrome  Offline
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Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 3,919
Chicago, IL USA
Originally Posted by carey
Originally Posted by JoelW
Originally Posted by debrucey
I don't think it was possible in those days to 'accidentally' take a photograph


You're right. I forgot about the insanely slow shutter speed. This photo is puzzling me. It doesn't look posed, yet pictures back then had to be posed.

...


Actually, camera shutters weren't invented until the 1870s. smile


Hmmmm..... 22 years for the shutter to make its appearance. That IS a long time.


There is no end of learning. -Robert Schumann Rules for Young Musicians
Re: Another picture of Chopin? [Re: JoelW] #2095451
06/04/13 04:51 PM
06/04/13 04:51 PM
Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 808
Rainy England
EdwardianPiano Offline
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Rainy England
Interesting re the photo, but I'm more fascinated by your Frederic experiences you describe on your blog. wow


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Music is a higher revelation than all wisdom and philosophy.
Ludwig van Beethoven.
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