Welcome to the Piano World Piano Forums
Over 2.5 million posts about pianos, digital pianos, and all types of keyboard instruments
Join the World's Largest Community of Piano Lovers (it's free)
It's Fun to Play the Piano ... Please Pass It On!


SEARCH
Piano Forums & Piano World
(ad)
Modern Piano Moving
Modern Piano Moving
(ad)
Virtual Sheet Music
Download Sheet Music Instantly
Virtual Sheet Music - Classical Sheet Music Downloads
Sheet Music...
(125ad)
Piano Life Saver - Dampp Chaser
Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver
(ad)
Piano Buyer Guide
Piano Buyer Spring 2017
(ad)
Lindeblad Piano
Lindeblad Piano Restorations and sales
Who's Online Now
120 registered members (36251, accordeur, Albunea, anotherscott, agraffe, amad23, 35 invisible), 2,103 guests, and 8 spiders.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
(ad)
Estonia Pianos
Estonia Pianos
Quick Links to Useful Piano & Music Resources
Our Classified Ads
Find Piano Professionals-

*Piano Dealers - Piano Stores
*Piano Tuners
*Piano Teachers
*Piano Movers
*Piano Restorations
*Piano Manufacturers

Quick Links:
*Advertise On Piano World
*Free Piano Newsletter
*Online Piano Recitals
*Piano Recitals Index
*Piano & Music Accessories
*Live Piano Venues
*Music School Listings
* Buying a Piano
*Buying A Acoustic Piano
*Buying a Digital Piano
*Pianos for Sale
*Sell Your Piano
*How Old is My Piano?
*Directory/Site Map
*Virtual Piano
*Music Word Search
*Piano Videos
*Virtual Piano Chords & Scales
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
#2085646 - 05/20/13 09:12 AM Learning to tune my own unisons  
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 305
Steve Peterson Offline

Bronze Level Supporter until October 5 2014
Steve Peterson  Offline

Bronze Level Supporter until October 5 2014


Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 305
Texas
I recently bought a wonderful Baldwin Concert Grand. My technician spent about 15 hours regulating, tuning, and voicing, it, and it sounds really good...except...

I have three notes where the unisons have slipped. They don't necessarily sound out of tune, but they are very bright and metallic stand out. Due to how even the piano felt right after his last work, I tend to think it's slipped unisons. They drive me crazy, and I have a hard time not focusing on these notes when I play.

So....I'm thinking about learning to touch up unisons on my piano. I have no desire to learn how to tune an entire piano. I haven't the time to learn to do it well enough for my standards. I have a good ear, and I have spent decades tuning cellos and basses and listening for the beats. My roommate has an old out-of-tune spinet I could practice on, so I wouldn't have to learn on my baby.

I have two questions: 1. Would you think this is feasible? Can I, with relatively little training, learn to tune unisons in reasonable manner.

2. I know there's significant technique involved in working the pin with the hammer to lock the pins in place. Because of this, I want to do it right. I'm considering asking my tech to teach me. Would you as a tech be willing to teach an interested student? If so, how much of his time would I need to learn enough to understand the basics?

Thanks,

Steve

Last edited by Steve Peterson; 05/20/13 07:02 PM.

Cello, Piano, Electric Bass

1967 Baldwin SD-10 | Kawai MP11
(ad 800)
PTG 2017 Convention
PTG Convention 2017 St Louis
#2085669 - 05/20/13 10:20 AM Re: Learning to turn my own unisons [Re: Steve Peterson]  
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 25,050
BDB Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
BDB  Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 25,050
Oakland
What you are hearing may be a voicing problem, not tuning. That can change very quickly after work is done on a piano.


Semipro Tech
#2085739 - 05/20/13 12:32 PM Re: Learning to turn my own unisons [Re: Steve Peterson]  
Joined: Sep 2012
Posts: 225
AndyJ Offline
Full Member
AndyJ  Offline
Full Member

Joined: Sep 2012
Posts: 225
Near Dayton, Ohio USA
I agree with BDB that what you're describing may not be a slipped unison. It's really easy to test though: assuming the notes are trichords, stop one string with something handy (but not your finger which would leave possibly corrosive materials behind) and strike the key. Do you hear beats? Try the same test, stopping each of the three strings. If you hear no beats, the unison is in tune.

I've adjusted unisons and octaves for years. Your tech will probably be happy to show you how and to recommend the simple tools you need (a tuning hammer and a few rubber wedges).

Good luck,

Andy

#2085747 - 05/20/13 12:56 PM Re: Learning to turn my own unisons [Re: Steve Peterson]  
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 3,087
Mark Cerisano Offline
3000 Post Club Member
Mark Cerisano  Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 3,087
Montreal, Quebec, Canada
I have taught hundreds of students to tune pianos. Tuning a few slipped unisons using proper hammer technique is not that difficult with proper equipment and expert guidance. Especially if you have an older piano to learn on.

Have you called your tech about this problem? If it were me, I'd drop by and touch them up for you. Especially after the extent of work that was done.

Good luck.


Mark Cerisano, RPT, B.Sc.(Mech.Eng), Dip.Ed.(Music)
www.howtotunepianos.com
(ad)
Piano & Music Accessories
piano accessories music gifts tuning and moving equipment
#2085881 - 05/20/13 04:37 PM Re: Learning to turn my own unisons [Re: AndyJ]  
Joined: Sep 2012
Posts: 225
AndyJ Offline
Full Member
AndyJ  Offline
Full Member

Joined: Sep 2012
Posts: 225
Near Dayton, Ohio USA
Originally Posted by AndyJ
I've adjusted unisons and octaves for years....

I probably should have added that my octaves (at least until I bought TuneLab for Android recently) were not necessarily the same as what a tuner would produce. I just tuned them to be beatless, therefore didn't include whatever stretch would have been appropriate. Since I never adjusted more than a few notes, and only when they were way off, the result was always less bad than what I began with. :-)

Andy

#2085920 - 05/20/13 05:47 PM Re: Learning to turn my own unisons [Re: Steve Peterson]  
Joined: Dec 2012
Posts: 295
Herr Weiss Offline
Full Member
Herr Weiss  Offline
Full Member

Joined: Dec 2012
Posts: 295
New York, N.Y.
Is there a way to correct the title of this thread so we can avoid confusion?

-H.W.

PS- Jerry Groot would have loved it, that's for sure.


-H.W.

Last edited by Herr Weiss; 05/20/13 05:53 PM.

"Respond intelligently, even to unintelligent treatment."
-Lao Tzu
#2085923 - 05/20/13 05:50 PM Re: Learning to turn my own unisons [Re: Steve Peterson]  
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 3,087
Mark Cerisano Offline
3000 Post Club Member
Mark Cerisano  Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 3,087
Montreal, Quebec, Canada
That is basically how stretch is produced. Clean octaves have minimal beating at the higher partials. "No stretch" is defined as no beating at the 2:1 partial which leaves more beating at the higher partials, beating that is obvious to hear. (That is actually not completely correct since the 2nd partial is still stretched, but I hope you get the idea.)

When you use Tunelab to tune your octaves, do you hear some difference in the sound of the "beatless" octaves you tune by ear, and the octaves tunelab tells you are better? (What's better than beatless?)

Granted some beating of the octave is acceptable if you are trying for less beating at the larger intervals like 12th and triple octaves, especially in the very high treble, but this thread is about basic tuning, so we should keep it at that.

(Sorry Andy, I thought I was answering Steve's post but only just realized it was you who commented on Tunelab and the octaves. I'll leave it as it is. Just wanted you to know.)

Last edited by Mark Cerisano, RPT; 05/20/13 05:58 PM.

Mark Cerisano, RPT, B.Sc.(Mech.Eng), Dip.Ed.(Music)
www.howtotunepianos.com
#2085928 - 05/20/13 05:59 PM Re: Learning to turn my own unisons [Re: Mark Cerisano]  
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 3,087
Mark Cerisano Offline
3000 Post Club Member
Mark Cerisano  Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 3,087
Montreal, Quebec, Canada
BTW Andy, was Tunelab for Android less expensive than Tunelab for iPhone?


Mark Cerisano, RPT, B.Sc.(Mech.Eng), Dip.Ed.(Music)
www.howtotunepianos.com
#2085932 - 05/20/13 06:03 PM Re: Learning to turn my own unisons [Re: Mark Cerisano]  
Joined: Sep 2012
Posts: 225
AndyJ Offline
Full Member
AndyJ  Offline
Full Member

Joined: Sep 2012
Posts: 225
Near Dayton, Ohio USA
Originally Posted by Mark Cerisano, RPT
That is basically how stretch is produced. Clean octaves have minimal beating at the higher partials. "No stretch" is defined as no beating at the 2:1 partial which leaves more beating at the higher partials, beating that is obvious to hear.

When you use Tunelab to tune your octaves, do you hear some difference in the sound of the "beatless" octaves you tune by ear, and the octaves tunelab tells you are better? (What's better than beatless?)

Granted some beating of the octave is acceptable if you are trying for less beating at the larger intervals like 12th and triple octaves, especially in the very high treble, but this thread is about basic tuning, so we should keep it at that.

That makes sense, now that I think about it. I haven't actually tested Tunelab octaves vs aural octaves. I'll be sure to do so next time.

I have to confess that I've only done one tuning with Tunelab so far. My piano is more than ready for the next one; I just haven't summoned up the gumption to dive into it. I know this is going to get easier with practice but the first one took a REALLY long time. Granted I was using the evaluation version with its 2-minute delays and now own the software, but I have to try some different hammer techniques -- and I'm reminded now that I meant to order a better hammer, too. My back hurt for two days after the last tuning and I'd rather not repeat that!

I've been planning to get some pointers from my tech but haven't been able to schedule the time.

#2085935 - 05/20/13 06:06 PM Re: Learning to turn my own unisons [Re: Mark Cerisano]  
Joined: Sep 2012
Posts: 225
AndyJ Offline
Full Member
AndyJ  Offline
Full Member

Joined: Sep 2012
Posts: 225
Near Dayton, Ohio USA
Originally Posted by Mark Cerisano, RPT
BTW Andy, was Tunelab for Android less expensive than Tunelab for iPhone?

It's $300 on all platforms.

Andy

#2085948 - 05/20/13 06:41 PM Re: Learning to turn my own unisons [Re: Steve Peterson]  
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 3,087
Mark Cerisano Offline
3000 Post Club Member
Mark Cerisano  Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 3,087
Montreal, Quebec, Canada
Re: hammers and technique. There is a simple technique that I have developed, that is independent of the type of hammer and produces stable tunings on most pianos. It uses Tunelab, or equivalent, and various hammer angles/approaches to find the best one for that piano. It is also the slow pull technique I have posted about, which is less stressful on the shoulder, arm, and wrist than a jerking motion. I will try to find time to post the procedure in the future.


Mark Cerisano, RPT, B.Sc.(Mech.Eng), Dip.Ed.(Music)
www.howtotunepianos.com
#2085952 - 05/20/13 06:52 PM Re: Learning to turn my own unisons [Re: Steve Peterson]  
Joined: Sep 2012
Posts: 225
AndyJ Offline
Full Member
AndyJ  Offline
Full Member

Joined: Sep 2012
Posts: 225
Near Dayton, Ohio USA
Hi Mark,

Thanks, I'll be looking forward to reading your message. My one tuning turned out quite well, I think, and lasted pretty well too, so maybe my technique wasn't too bad.


Moderated by  Piano World 

Piano Acc. & Gift Items in
Piano World's Online Store
In PianoSupplies.com ,(a division of Piano World) our online store for piano and music gifts and accessories, party goods, tuning equipment, piano moving equipment, benches, lamps Caster Cups and more.


Free Shipping on Jansen Artist Piano Benches
(ad)
Pearl River
Pearl River Pianos
ad
Pierce Piano Atlas


(ad)
Pianoteq
Grotrian Concert
Royal
for Pianoteq out now
What's Hot!!
Why Do You Play The Piano?
-------------------
Posting Pictures on the Forums
-------------------
Forums RULES & HELP
-------------------
ADVERTISE on Piano World
-------------------
Piano Classified Ads
New Topics - Multiple Forums
iPad Pro 13" + Henle Library = great combo
by jokke. 06/24/17 03:51 PM
sustain pedal problem on Kawai MP11
by drpharmer. 06/24/17 03:30 PM
Sojin Piano Advice
by nicr. 06/24/17 03:16 PM
Piano Break In Period Length
by iObsessed. 06/24/17 02:53 PM
Stopping Sound Board Buzz
by That Guy. 06/24/17 02:16 PM
(ad)
Sheet Music Plus
Sheet Music Plus Featured Sale
(ad)
Accu-Tuner
Sanderson Accu-Tuner
Forum Statistics
Forums44
Topics180,428
Posts2,638,688
Members88,173
Most Online15,252
Mar 21st, 2010
Check It Out!
There's a lot more to Piano World than just the forums.
Check It Out!
Visit our online store for gifts for music lovers


 
Help keep the forums up and running with a donation, any amount is appreciated!
Or by becoming a Subscribing member! Thank-you.
Donate   Subscribe
 
Our Piano Related Classified Ads
| Dealers | Tuners | Lessons | Movers | Restorations | Pianos For Sale | Sell Your Piano |

Advertise on Piano World
| Subscribe | Piano World | PianoSupplies.com | Advertise on Piano World |
| |Contact | Privacy | Legal | About Us | Site Map | Free Newsletter |


copyright 1997 - 2017 Piano World ® all rights reserved
No part of this site may be reproduced without prior written permission
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.6.0