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People refer to some pianos produced at the end of the 19c as "late romantic". How did the development of the modern piano affect the performance and sound of piano music during the 20c?

Wow!

This is a subject that many of us could write about for many hours. In fact, the subject of 19th c. performance practices has so much active research going on about it presently, it is truly mind blowing.

Frankly, I am not an expert on the subject, but I know some here are, so I will keep my comments brief and limited to the instrument itself.

The "modern piano" evolved in two ways. First, the action definitely improved. Repetition and balance opened the palatte that a musician could use to achieve their art. Second, the modern piano became capable of a larger bolder sound. This sound allowed this instrument to be used in large halls accompanied by large orchestras.

But that had a downside as well. Some of the sound that was explored by so many 19th c. composers who wrote character pieces for piano was more difficult to find in these new instruments. The contrast and sweetness that made some of the most beautiful romantic music that was written to be played at small salon gatherings was lost when it was played on a "modern piano" in front of a larger audience.

I am looking forward to watching this thread develop. This will be a good one!

It should be an interesting thread indeed. I've found, not really having done research in the topic specifically, but by listening and playing many works across this period, the style of writing has leaned towards the technical, abstract style of modern classical music, as opposed to the warmer, more expressive, style of Chopin. It could be that Liszt, who demanded much in his pianos so that they could stand up to his playing, started the ball rolling towards faster development of the piano.

As time goes on, the piano's sound has very much resembled today's. As the piano improved structurally and in terms of dynamics, so did the music. Composers seemed to be pretty keen exploring the boundaries of sound with the piano, as composers like Prokofiev (just one example that comes to mind).

Having played recently a very modern work (Sonata (1990), 1st Movement, Carl Vine), it shows that that type of music would simply not have worked at all on a so-called "romantic" period piano. One can still make beautiful sounds with the modern piano playing romantic period repertoire. But it does not sound the same, and the techniques used can be very different, in regards to pedaling, and the length of sustain on the pianos then and now, for example.

^Above is just my theories. May or not be correct, but it's what I've noticed.
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As a player that tries to be as accurate as possible in terms of colour and control, I sometimes find it excruciatingly difficult to produce the right sounds on a modern piano, as opposed to an older instrument. The action, how it feels, and the sound and sustain, are all different, thus, the forces and pedaling techniques are different to compensate. The one differences that strikes me most is the almost complete lack of tonal variation from register to register on the modern piano, where most of us try to find pianos that are completely even in tone from top to bottom. In a period instrument, there is a great variation from top to bottom, and it adds interest to the music to no end when you can use these colours to your advantage.

Edit: I find that it is this freedom and variation is what makes the music work. Quite possibly, because the modern piano is so sensitive, it shows up everything you're doing wrong more clearly, and much more care is needed. On older pianos, the keys seem to go down more easily, and the tone is less harsh and percussive, albeit with a decreased dynamic range. It could easily be this feature that was exploited by the composers in that time, with beautiful, soaring melodies on a piano less percussive and loud, that make it easier to play. It is hard to explain, but intuitive for me (and other pianists presumably).

There is certainly much to write here, as I'd also be interested in what others have to say here. I'd love to into greater detail on my own experiences on this topic, I just need to find some time to do so... So much to say, it would definitely take hours...

Its hard look at previous ways of doing things without looking at it from a modern bias. Improved is a relative term, in my opinion...maybe different would be a better term.

If you look at some of the repertoire for earlier pianos, for example Schubert, and look at the nature of the compositions, one can easily see how pre-Erard actions made huge sense. For instance, in Schubert, the cascades of arpeggios...though Schubert is earlier than the Victorian aesthetic the OP might be talking about.

Actions & arpeggios: I'm thinking of one instrument from the Fredrick Collection, Trondlein (1820) (which I love,and has been the source of much inspiration in my own piano thinking). I call it the Schubert piano whenever I see it, as it suites song so well and is my favorite instrument in the collection.

Physically this instrument's action makes total sense in performing the arpeggios which underlie all of the Schubert repertoire. The dip is way less than a modern instrument, 1/4" total instead of 3/8"+ for a modern action. Hammer mass tiny in relation to modern hammers, inertia extremely, extremely low by modern standards. Because of the tiny dip & minisucle inertia, very little finger movement is required to create the arpeggio. Instead, the arpeggio is rolled...the wrist is rolled, the fingers do not need to individually fully extend into each note of the arpeggio. The technique is easier and more sustainable for ordinary mortals, and lends itself to faster tempos than the modern setup will allow. Relatively speaking,the technique is more of a gross motor skill (rolling wrist) rather than a fine motor skill(individually extended and retracted fingers).

Tonally the differentiation between registers is very clear. The uniform full compass sound of the modern piano differs significantly from this variegated tonal palette. As well, since the sustain levels of this instrument are so low, again relative to the modern piano, the differentiation of registers becomes easily perceived, allowing thicker textures to retain the feeling of an ensemble rather than a singular source of musical sound.

I heard Beethoven opus 110 on this instrument, and it completely blew me away. (Bass strings are plain wire brass to the bottom by the way,at least on this baby). For years I have experienced late Beethoven as its own musical era...the guy was somewhere utterly unique and amazing. But, I have also found the texture so thick as to wonder whether in his deafness, his hearing was way beyond the reality of the instrument. That is until I heard op 110 on this piano. The differentiation and short sustain was such that every part of the fugue sang as if it were part of an ensemble rather than a singular piano(ist). Clarity out of that density...yeah! A density of texture which on the modern piano seems only possible for technical wizards and outliers, singing so clearly on an appropriate instrument played by good but not wizard technique, making the music sing in away I never experienced it before.

These pre-Veinnese pianos speak to me. Perhaps some else has some knowledge about the mid-century offerings.

One other thing, though the sound pressure produced by these instruments is much less than the modern piano, in a decent sized concert venue, the experience of volume was totally appropriate to the venue. At the key board,the sound level experienced by the pianist is significanlty reduced from what we "expect" to experience, but in the audience the sound level is, to my ears, completely appropriate and thankfully not so "in your face" as a modern piano tends to be.

Jim Ialeggio

I'm happy that this thread is getting popularity in this forums. Too much to discover about the fortepiano... Specialy from brands like Graf, Pleyel, Erard, Broadwood etc...

When someone says late 19c pianos, I am thinking 1885 - 1900, not 1820s, 40s or 60s.

I think pianos which were modern and had advanced designs in 1890 were very much different that what had been produced 30 years earlier, but not that different from what was produced 30 years later. In other words, the big sweeping changes came earlier, before the late 19th century.

Well, I think we can go back to about 1875 when Steinway, Ibach and others were developing those pianos.

Steinway sent Richard Wagner a very grand piano in 1876. You can hear Liszt, Annees De Pelerinage, played on it in a modern recording here: http://www.instantencore.com/music/details.aspx?PId=5100923.

Ibach's c1885 catalogue quotes letters from Brahms, Liszt and Wagner and illustrates the "Richard Wagner" model.

I think of "flat strung" pianos as pre modern..

The 1820-1855 was the best period of the fortepiano, then it was more and more modernized.

Yes, I see what you are saying Jim. I can go with that. By the same token there were specific goals in some of the action changes and some things that changed as a side effect. For instance, changes in hammer design effected the total weight of the piano action to the player.



Again, interesting point. It makes me think - a guitarist voices his chords differently than a pianist does because of the nature of his instrument.

This makes me wonder how differently Schubert would have written if he had had access to an instrument built in the 1870's. Would he have written those arpeggios at all or would he have found a different way to express his musical ideas?

Good to chat, Jim.

So when did the first metal plates come out? I read that the wooden ones could get destroyed in one concert...

Partial struts, sometimes called "resistance bars" were used in early pianos in the 1820's, but Chickering used the first iron frame in the 1840's.

Getting destroyed in one concert had little to do with having iron in the frame or not Mark. The iron struts and later full frames offered stability during changes in humidity and during heavy play. They might go out of tune in the middle of a performance, but this didn't cause them to be destroyed.

However, some of the actions had simpler designs and when a player wanted more out of an instrument than it could give, occasionally shanks broke - and even early jacks.

I do think that a modern contemporary piano should be capable of producing a good facsimile of the composers intent for all of the eras of piano literature. I have never felt comfortable with the limits placed on a particular piano as a "good Beethoven or Rachmaninoff, etc piano". I have found it possible to configure the details of the modern piano design in such a way, (hybrid wire scaling and other things) so as to meet the broadest requirements of all the musical genres expected to be applied to a piano. You do not need to sacrifice the rich American bass tone sound to produce the clarity needed for arpeggiated counterpoint. With the proper string design and hammers, you can hear the low Beethoven chords clearly and still get the ringing bells of the Russian works. You can get the subtle colors of impressionism and the articulation of Scarlatti and Mozart. You just have to combine all of the elements in a balanced way. There are "Feedback Loops" that can be employed to determine the exact specifications for the components of a given scale design.

This doesn't mean that all pianos will be exactly the same from these methods-but rather pianos so constructed will allow most skilled pianists to rapidly divine how to communicate their version of a composers musical intent.

Now if you only want to rip up the house with some honkey-tonk dance jive-(which I certainly also enjoy)-the specification tolerances are wider and looser.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JlfEbbbr5vw

How to reproduce that color in a Steinway?!?

I can agree with your statement, but only in the way that a movie is a "good facsimile" of a live staged performance.

Please let me know if I am misunderstanding you.

Yours,

My use of the term "good facsimile" would include every musically satisfying performance of a composers work no matter what the instrument.

I am unfamiliar with pianos referenced as "late romantic." The terminology I am most familiar with is "modern."

I keep reading, and re-reading this thread and remain confused if we are talking about the development of the piano, at the tail end of the 19th century, or is it in reference to the category of music? A composer, such as Rachmaninoff, is certainly a "Romantic" composer and knew the "modern" piano. However, he would most certainly have known and understood the previous types of instruments. Would he prefer a Tchaikovsky concerto on an earlier instrument? It becomes a great topic for discussion and conjecture.

We have gone through, and are still in, a time of scholarship concerning "period" instrument performance. It is a fascinating and rewarding study.

As a thought to ponder, I wonder how the Prokofiev "Classical Symphony" would sound with a chamber orchestra being performed on period instruments. The juxtaposition is an interesting concept.

Being "musically satisfying" has everything to do with perspective, Ed. Just because I personally feel that today's opera singers perform Montiverdi in a "musically satisfying" way does not mean that Monteverdi would think so.

I assumed the OP was referring to "pre-modern" pianos, Ed.

What you are saying is not making sense to me when applied to these beasts, unless you have some magical dust out there in Seattle. If so, please send me some.

To be specific I was thinking about pianos that made their appearance around 1875 to 1885 and then continued in production into the early 20c.

As it happens there are some recordings available from that era so it's possible to contrast their sounds and styles of performances with recent ones.

I'll elaborate on the term "late romantic" later.

Respectfully disagreeing, I do not think it is not possible. I have not heard a single piano modern piano remotely sounding like a fortepiano, or wooden framed mid 1800's piano, and not expecting to find one to do so, unless it's a replica.



Simply put, it's not possible.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GiPiGCE4s5s

Piano solo starts at 3'23". The whole concerto is available for listening on youtube.