Piano World Home Page Forums Our Most Popular Forums Piano Tuner-Technicians Forum only up! Tuning hammer technique maxim_tuner ( from9 by 12 )

Regardless of the exact calculations you have entered in favor of the position of the lever right side this is an unscientific justification strong of springs. Lever on the right can only increase the pressure on the pin. In this case, the bending t.pin inevitable.

it how?

can why not. Meter long lever handle and minimal pressure on it Tune a piano not a day but a week. 3 pin in hour

I said that for grand pianos - I dont care much of that when raising the string and I correct it a little anyway.
I also do that more franckly on pianos with bushing to support the pin. Open blocks are manipulated nearer of 14:00 for raising.

Did you try to really bend a pin in a vice, whit a tuning lever on it ? the force needed is WAY much more than the one to tune, hopefully.

The tuning pin is more or less floating between the lever and the string torque when you use a right posture with the lever to raise.
It allow to read the maximum torque that the pin is able to give, without being disturbed by pinblock friction.

The only problem is that it is still retained at its bottom, so the the top twist, then the bottom. (of course there is some level of springing toward the tuner then.

Now to set the pin that is a different matter .

Now if a tuner use a technique that make waving motions on the pin, the metal certainly may get a little hot and softer after some time , and bending , even minimal, may happen within the pin.

When the pin is forced to twist on itself, it probably need a little time to spring back.

Anyway... pin elasticity is way higher in its axis of rotation than with its bending.

The way and the orientation you hold the lever allow to control that if you want to avoid it. When adding torque slowly even bending is not a problem. Not all pins / pinblocks bend the same

I did not do. I saw your pictures,Isaac. But what pin more "floats" in the hole than to bent obvious.

On a vertical, I would say that holding the lever at 12:00 causes the least change in pitch due to bending the pin. At 10:00 using the left hand, or 2:00 using the right hand, I would say it would have the most change due to the fact that the pin is bending in line with the string, changing its pitch.

But my point still is that bending/flexing/flagpoling the pin (whatever you want to call it) is a necessary part of manipulating the pin. It can't be eliminated; only tamed and used to work in our favor.

Once the pin begin to move on its bottom , I really feel it "floating", because I doubt I have raised the tension so much then.
Incidentally, when the lever is hold at 14:00 15:00 on a grand, the upper part of the pin is unlocked immediately, so you are working in close contact with the bottom of the pin at the moment it begins to move.

This is too all-encompassing a statement. Unless you have tried and mastered all methods that all tuners use, I simply don't understand how you can make this statement. Even engineers, after all the theory and calculations done by teams, will build and test an actual prototype before committing to production. They know that their theory and calculations can take them only so far.


Maximillyan,

Isaac has hit the nail squarely on the head. There are all types of pins and pinblocks. IMO, your best bet is to master many diverse approaches .. One size does not fit all. You want to be able to choose from many different weapons in your arsenal of technique.

Joe, unless you are applying pure torque, i.e., twisting only, as you would do with a screwdriver, you are applying pressure to one side of the pin as you are twisting.

If you put the lever at 12:00 on a vertical and pull to the right as to raise pitch with the right hand, you are pulling the pin in the direction of the your pull while the pin is at the same time twisting clockwise. If instead you are pushing to raise pitch, same thing: you are pushing the pin in the direction of your push (flagpoling) while it's twisting. There really is no way around it.

Loren, I think there is... by using the thumb and using great physical strength.

I would suggest trying the method I posted.

The first several times, use either the long or extra-long tip. This will exaggeratedly show you where all the various problems are that you will need to correct for with you arm/hand motion.

When you go to a shorter tip, use one that is slightly loose on the pin. Keep the pin mounted in such a way that it will wiggle in all directions as you rotate only by moving the arm-hand system in an arc... that way, you can be reasonably assured that you are not bending the pin. With a tight tip, it is too easy to bend the pin without realizing it. With a loose tip, you will know if you are starting to bend in any direction at any point during the rotation of the pin because you will fell the tip make contact with the side of the pin... You will know if the hammer wobbled as you rotated it.

Ironically, this is how a loose-fitting tip can give you better control over the pin than a tight-fitting tip. You get instant feedback about whether you are bending the pin as you rotate the pin. You just keep the tuning tip centered so that it would wobble in any direction.

Edit: You want the pin to be engaged by only the rotational force from the tip, not side-to-side force, nor up-and -down force.

Loren, we are sort of quasi-semi-local to each other. I know that you are a very good tech, though we've never actually met. But, I think you are over-reaching when you just dismiss the notion of preventing bending.

Joe, I'm certain that you're a good tech also. In fact, I know you are. Please don't feel I am in any way discounting or dismissing your abilities by my position on this, because nothing could be further from my intention!

I'm familiar with the method you're talking about, and actually, I started tuning left handed back when I started tuning in '84. Eventually I switched to the right hand. I remember early on, reading Professional Piano Tuning by W. Dean Howell, where he advocated what he called the "rest arm technique," whereby the tuner would use the left hand on verticals. He would rest his fingers on the top of the piano, have the lever at around 11:00 and resting between his thumb and index finger with the thumb wrapped around it, and then use the "crawling" technique of his fingers to move the pin. The hand in this method was very close to the pin. I used this method exclusively when I was beginning tuning and did it for years. Clearly the pin is being "pulled" upward while turning, and had to be pulled a bit back down in setting.

I'm not knocking your technique, Joe. And what you're doing may be different than what I described. I still feel though that as long as any side load is being applied to the pin, the pin is going to react to that force; even minimally.

O. K. Let's ignore the entrenched infighting in this thread. It is not central to the subject.

We have established that on an upright, 12o'clock will minimise the effect of any flagpoling produced. Can we interpret this as also meaning that the lever is in line with the direction of the string?
Can we agree that if we want to turn the pin that last annoying tiny increment in order to put the string in tune, while disturbing as little else as possible, to have the lever in line with the string would be the most helpful position to accomplish this?

Everyone agreed so far?

Loren, Thank you for the very kind words. They are much appreciated

I am impressed with you knowledge of this technique. It does sound very similar to the method I am describing. When I was a student, we were shown several methods, but they were pushing the impact method at that time. For whatever reason, this method just clicked more for me. Maybe I'm just doomed to be contrarian my whole life lol.

I think the book you are referring to "might" be around here "somewhere". (Edit: I think it's one of those books I bought and planned to get to 'someday," but someday never came.) Do you recall if he also advocated using a loose-fitting tip with this method?

I don't think a loose tip would be an advantage with any other method that I know of. But with this specific method, it does seem to give very good immediate feedback as to the hammer/pin relationship. In fact, when I finally realized the advantages of a loose tip after being in business a few years, my tuning stability immediately skyrocketed way beyond what it was.

Thanks again,
-Joe

Dear Loren D,When it comes verticals about. I have allowed myself to disagree with you. From (9 up to 12) - YES. But in another way (2:00), this is additional power load, which causes pin bend.
In the area of (9-12 up) is minimized optimal pressure on t. pin. as a result there is only a smooth forward motion of pin in the hole. It should also be noted that the pin has a thread-knurling. Its presence provides two positions of a pin movement (screwing and wringing). Friction is ensured only due thread-knurling of pin with wooden grooves of hole. If we twisting the pin (from 12:00 down), the additional load of the string will be it's(wooden grooves of hole) ruined. As a result pin lose frictions soon. After piano tuning method (from 12:00 down) it would be worse to ensure the pin's sustainability

daniokeeper,I ask you to clarify what was meant.

Maximillyan,

I was referring only to a specific method that Loren and I discussed. In my opinion, having a loose tip is only advantageous when using the method shown in the following photographs. It probably is not helpful with other methods, including the one you showed in this thread.

Edit: I realize that sometimes languages can be confusing. By loose tip, I mean that the tuning lever is not tight on the tuning pin... That the tuning lever can wobble after connecting to the pin.

-Joe

http://www.flickr.com/photos/8043014@N06/8728283834/in/photostream

http://www.flickr.com/photos/8043014@N06/8727165177/in/photostream

http://www.flickr.com/photos/8043014@N06/8727165019/in/photostream

http://www.flickr.com/photos/8043014@N06/8727164441/in/photostream

Sort of... The lever should ideally be in line with the string segment that goes from the tuning pin to the nut, assuming there is no other good reason for using a different angle (player pianos, square grands, etc.).

Edit: I realize that sometimes languages can be confusing. By loose tip, I mean that the tuning lever is not tight on the tuning pin... That the tuning lever can wobble after connecting to the pin.

Joe, if I understand you correctly ... it means that the "star" (head) of hammer has some backlash “luft” with a pin. Is not it?

Max use (10:00 and 11:00)right hand,when T-bar level(left)
http://youtu.be/IAAcNGA4XeI