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WR, there's no need to guess my feelings. I'll make them even clearer. You may not mean it personally, I wouldn't know that for a fact--but I take it personally, and I do know that for a fact. I have proposed a private truce, and if one of us fails to live up to it and does respond to the other, everyone will know they peeked and broke the truce, as the other will be able to post the deal that was made. This is not a deal "based on trust between strangers. Within the context of Piano World, we know each other quite well. And "trust." It's not that either. The idea is that the threat of public embarrassment will enforce the deal. As to the problem of finding ourselves participating on the same post, and being quoted, just give me a little space. Take the time to write around me bit. I'll do the same.

So have a heart. If not for yourself, do it for me.

Push the button and let me know, and I'll push the button and let you know, and I will be relieved of all the feelings that you are attacking me. It would be a real favor to me, even a gift. It would loosen the hesitancy I feel in contributing to Piano World, because I would then be able to more freely participate in the forums, both in content and in terms of allowing some of my personality to hang out a bit--to be funny, to be wry, to be enjoyable, and maybe even a little passionate at times--without feeling I must spend so much time writing as cautiously and carefully as I feel I must. It makes me feel hobbled in my personal style. Afterall, this is an online forum, not an academic forum. We're all people with personalities. I'd like to be a little looser in my participation. I hate participating with the attitude that I must "give as good as I get." I just loathe it.

And I'd rather participate more on Piano World, not less, and there are any number of Piano World participants who would like to hear more from me. They like my posts. They find them "interesting," "always on point," "good content," "thoughtful"--they have said so both openly and in private messages--but the fear of attack, intentional on your part, or not, inhibits me.

Please. What does it cost you?

Yes, you could say Beethoven was the first modernist, and he may have been offended but he was still a human being and that doesn't make him right. I don't mean servant in the literal sense as in one who would carry the luggage, but one who's duty is to *serve the spirit and function of art which had always been to put people in accord with their world during their time.
People love to reference Beethoven's late works as a means of supporting the idea of "too difficult at first listen position" but there are many many moments of those late works which are highly accessible. I would argue that the waldstein is as ethereal transcendent and simultaneously more accessible than the last trio of sonatas or the late string quartets.

Speaking of Babbitt, I took a class with a protege of his who writes fractal music and he didn't like late Beethoven and said it was "weird"
I think it was a short work by Soloman that did a lot to perpetuate the late Beethoven as mystic idea

I wanna propose a deal to those whom I feel are reacting more personally to me than to the content of my posts. But the deal requires a little explanation. The "ignore this user" button isn't as effective as it might be. I've tried it. It is just too easy to push the button a second time and have a little peek.

But I will make a pledge to those who I feel are reacting personally to me rather than to my content, (I think you have a pretty good sense of who you might be). I pledge to push your "ignore this user" button, and never, ever peek at your posts, if you promise to push my "ignore this user" button, and never, ever peek at my posts?"

Deal?

If you accept, let me know with a private message, and we'll never come to this point again.

"Oh, btw, I don't really mind your posts, in fact I enjoy them a lot, but the smelly socks was a bad analogy, exactly because my life is contemporary classical music and it pains me to see such analogies... The opposite never stands true really: Can you imagine thread labelled "What on earth is about Chopin? He's ugly, his music is awful, and he's popular! Why, oh why, oh why?!?!". "

I don't understand your point. Nobody says those things about Chopin because he isn't any of those things

"Oh, btw, I don't really mind your posts, in fact I enjoy them a lot, but the smelly socks was a bad analogy, exactly because my life is contemporary classical music and it pains me to see such analogies... The opposite never stands true really: Can you imagine thread labelled "What on earth is about Chopin? He's ugly, his music is awful, and he's popular! Why, oh why, oh why?!?!". "

I don't understand your point. Nobody says those things about Chopin because he isn't any of those things

OK. No takers to the deal. That closes that avenue. I don't know how to respond at this point. That's just too bad, and I feel badly about it.

Tomasino

I'm beginning to wonder if I'm on anyone's "Ignore" list. That would make me feel important - that I've managed to upset or annoy somebody enough to want to do that .

How would I know? Would I care?

But how would I know whether I'd care, if I don't know?

I wish the forum software would have the option for more complete ignorance (is that the right usage?).

So let me get this straight. Tomasino believe he has feuds with certain people on PW but those people do not feel mutually about it? Also, what's all this talk about an agreement to add eachother to their ignore lists?! That's the silliest thing I've ever heard.

I haven't been following this thread at all so I apologize if this post seems rather random or out of flow with the rest of you.

I believe there's already plenty of that in the world.

LMAO!!

First of all, Joel, HAPPY BIRTHDAY!

Second of all, yes, you do have it straight. Maybe one of the strangest dialogues I've ever read on PW.

Since the "Ignore" button can be used by anyone at anytime without announcing it, there's absolutely no reason to announce it other than to insult the other person. It serves no other purpose than to announce to your intended target that you're using it. And guess what? Even then, there's no proof at all that it really IS being used.

Reminds me of what we did as kids. When our playmates said nasty and evil things, we'd cover our ears with our hands, close our eyes, and yell at the top of our lungs, "I can't see you! I can't hear you! Ha, ha, I can't hear a single thing you're saying!"

Is this where we have arrived at PW??

Frankly, I can't imagine ever wanting to use "Ignore". There is no one at PW that I would ever want to ignore. Many times I've read a post that I found silly, irritating, or downright offensive one day, and then read a very thoughtful or insightful post the very next day from the very same person. Such is the nature of being human.

None of us are saints. We cannot say everything perfectly every day. But we all have something to say, and if we cannot say it right on Saturday, then maybe on Tuesday.

But what makes your version of the purpose of art the right one? Or the only one?

Or, what if those artists who are doing art as "pure fancy and intellectual indulgence" are in fact "putting people in accord with their world during their time". They may not be affecting all people in that way, but then, no artist does. If Babbitt's music in some way puts me in accord with my world (and I think it does), then I think it has served that higher purpose, according to your specifications.

I thought of some more examples of pre-Modernist purists than just Gesualdo and Beethoven, after I posted. One of the more interesting ones is Liszt, who often enough is accused of the exact opposite of of art for its own sake - which is that he unashamedly pandered to the masses with empty virtuosic bombast (a view I don't subscribe to, BTW). What's fascinating is that by the end of his life, he was composing music that was so utterly detached from anything anyone around him understood that not even Wagner, his buddy in "Music of the Future", could figure out what he was up to.

Liszt's friend Alkan (who was also a friend and neighbor of Chopin) wrote a large amount of music that was so unusual and private that it rarely, if ever, reached "the man on the street", but some his colleagues knew about it. Anton Rubinstein even dedicated his 5th piano concerto to Alkan.

I'm still around, still thinking sometimes contentious thoughts about music and related topics, and wondering if I should share them with you. It's a serious question.

Over the years I've become a target for several piano world participants who seem to be laying in wait for me whenever I submit a post. They jump up and pounce on me. I've taken one or two of them on from time to time and held my own pretty well--but to no avail. They just lay lower in the ditch. It's not fun, and it can be very time consuming. I end up writing so carefully and slowly, trying very hard to cause no offense--and still be clear in my thought--but cause offense I do. Some of my ideas may be a bubble off center, I know, and sometimes even contentious. Still, I feel we all ought to be given the latitude necessary to express unconventional and difficult to articulate ideas without having to deal with those who are looking to take offense. And so, a number of months ago when I was pounced upon in just such a matter, I simply decided to let Piano World go for awhile.

My good friend Daniel, more familiar to you all as Ridicosolamente, and who I got to know while he was doing grad work here in Minnesota, sent me an email and attached this thread. Thank you, Daniel. It made me think maybe I should let my irritation with those few participants go for awhile, as I have gotten a good deal out of sharing ideas with many of you over quite a few years. I miss that. So, I'll cautiously take a step in and see what happens.

Tomasino

To the question initiating this thread, "where is Tomasino?"--Tomasino is gone.