Piano World Home Page Forums Our Most Popular Forums Composer's Lounge Accidentally improvised a wonderful piece

There are two points I'd like to make in response to that.

1) I'd like to be able to play this piece, or something like it except (even) better. I can't, because I'm not skilled enough to notate it or learn it by ear. I thought that, maybe, someone super-skilled might be interested in taking some material from it, composing a piece based on that stuff, and publishing sheet music I could use for learning it. I guess that's utopian fantasy though, after reading all of your comments.

2) If you say I need your help with "thematic ideas", then you need to show you can improve on my thematic ideas. I've always agreed I'm not a brilliant developer of themes. But that's entirely different. Through inspiration, it's very possible to come up with pretty much perfect themes or "thematic ideas", even if you're otherwise a poor musician. As Borges said about writing, anybody can come up with a few good sentences. Anybody can come up with a few good themes, but those aren't necessarily the same themes other people come up with, and in this case I would have, at the very least, thought that that theme would have interested someone enough for them to do something with it and share the results, even if only an improvisation of their own they made sheet music from. But no. There seems to be neither true interest nor true altruism here (I can't imagine composing a short and effective piece based on that theme would be much work for many of you, so I mentioned that lack of altruism part, because it's something I would do if I were in your shoes).

Well assuming that another composer would be interested in spending time working your material is a bit of a stretch. Perhaps someone would be open to this, but most of us are quite busy working with our own material. And we use our own material because that is unique to us. Personally, I am not particularly interested in reworking anyone's material, good or bad.

I can, however, take a few moments to make some informed comments on a composition. At which point, that composer can accept or ignore my thoughts. I don't need to prove to you what I am saying. It is just guidance, I don't want to do it for you. I believe our goal here is to help you become a better composer for yourself, not to use you as a source of material.

I have never had a composition lesson where a teacher made a comment and I said well prove it, play me something better.

Charles you are correct I was referring to Mark Gordon. My apologies for not getting that right, it's been a long week and I found aspects of this thread unexpectedly very annoying.

However, with regard to this:

+1!

Medium Heights, here's my best advice, I don't care if you like it or not. If you don't have the skills to notate your music, it's not that hard to acquire them. Study music theory and study ear training and you'll probably find writing your music down isn't that difficult. I believe there are even free online courses in this stuff.

Why?

You really don't get it? Or you're just trying to troll a tiny bit?

The reason is simple: Especially in composition (but in any music lesson in effect) proving that you can do better has nothing to do with the quality of your comments, teachings and feedback! Imagine this: A piano teacher is teaching his student to play the 3rd Rach concerto. A work that the teacher is well aware of, has played it, but many many years ago, and, let's be honest is out of practice. Do you think that the teacher cannot teach the work? Or that it's fair/sane from the student to challenge the teacher in the way that you're challenging Steve?

Same goes for composition. The theme is yours, yours are the ideas, the feelings, the aesthetic, etc. If you ask me I think that a lot of the works provided here are wonderful! Better than my works a lot of times and I'm feeling jealous! But does this mean that I can't comment on a work, based on my experience, knowledge, credentials and what the heck else? Of course not! I can comment and be useful to the person(s) reading it, as well as the composer!

Your challenge is based on ego and not much else, I'm afraid.

Are you sure I'm the only one who doesn't get something here? Or could it be you are all casuals in terms of trying to comprehend what I write and empathise with my point of view? Just a thought.

I'm not going to explain myself over and over again. I've already done it adequately for anyone who has a sincere wish to communicate rather than preach.

Do you think that a single word, with a question mark constitutes a valid and adequate effort to communicate?

I'd say that you asked a question and I replied to the best of my ability. Why this isn't enough? Because my reply doesn't suite you?

OK. I'll repeat myself unnecessarily, and we'll see how useful that is.

If someone says he can help me with composition, then logically he has to be a better composer. It's not the same as helping someone with piano playing, because for that you need ears, not fingers. But helping with composition, for that you need to be better at least at some aspect of composition than the person you are trying to help.

Now in this case, Steve has said there's nothing interesting about my theme except one aspect of it. And he has apparently offered help with improving my thematic invention skills. This all logically implies that he is able to write a theme that is better than mine yet the same in terms of character. It also implies that my subjective experience of the theme as "perfect" isn't valid. There are two aspects to this:

1) I don't mind subjective reactions. I welcome them. But a line is crossed when my own subjective experiences are invalidated in the way that Steve did. This is even mentioned in the pianoworld forum rules, so I don't think I'm in the wrong here.

2) If he wants to help me write a better theme, then logically he must be able to improve my theme. There's no way around that. It's basic logic, specious analogies not withstanding.

I thank you for that, despite the fact that you already feel it's unnecessary! Think about it for a second. You start off your post with something rather negative...

I don't agree really... Composition has to do with tons of things. One can be great with compositional techniques or orchestration, but the overall picture may be different.

Moreover, showing that a composer can do something "better", under your requisites proves nothing. Did you try to check my compositions, or Steves' compositions? They can be found here and elsewhere...

No that's simply insane: You already feel that your theme is "perfect" so it's impossible to top that. Yet, you can't come up with a better left hand accompaniment in the other thread! you can't write/read music. You can't replay what you did. And what you're offering here just came up by accident(like Magic)...

If I'm misreading something, please tell me, but this is what I'm getting from you. And if this is the case, then it does seem bizarre that you're challenging Steve (or other composers here for that matter) to come up with something better, according to you. It's insulting in all honesty!

If you actually think that Steve broke the PianoWorld rules, you're most welcome to contact the mods.

But he didn't! He offered his serious knowledge, experience and valuable time to post (as I am actually, since I've given quite a bit of time to my posts here), without a thank you and a single insulting challenge.

And that to what? To be accused that he's breaking the rules?!?!

By all means, let me not be the person to break the rules "as Steve did". Your accidental improvisation, which is a wonderful piece is indeed a wonderful piece. End of story...

So are you looking for any kind of help (cause in the other thread you can't put your left hand to play what you feel is missing, as I understand it), or not? Because if anyone tells you that your wonderful piece isn't wonderful, then automatically they are breaking the PW rules?!?!?!

Now I'm speaking on behalf of Steve here and though it's not right, I'll do so, and if I'm wrong, Steve can correct me. He knows I mean well.

He doesn't want that. He doesn't have to prove anything to you, or anyone. He's done so with his own works. It's like asking Beethoven to work on a twelve tone work. And if he can't do it... well... he's a worst composer than Berg! Do you see the analogy in this?

____________________

So having answered to all your post, here's my honest and good will advice (honestly... I don't mean harm here, although I am rather annoyed at your posts towards Steve).

Stand back a little. Think that when you get public, you're bound to find people who don't like what they see/hear/read. It may feel hurtful, but it's not. Someone didn't listen past the 3rd minute gap. Me neither actually... (but your stance made me not post anything about your work, cause I'd have to prove myself to you and it's not worth it).

See what you can get from the posts here. If there's nothing, then there's nothing. If there's personal comments counter them, contact the mods, act accordingly. If you wish to challenge all those who speak to you (I mean already I'be been accused of preaching to you, when I AM geniouinely trying to help) you won't have any more people to talk to, cause people will simply avoid talking to you.

If you want to post your works and wait to listen how wonderful fantastic, etc they are, then by all means make these wonderful fantastic works and wait up. If you are looking to get better, then check out (I repeat that) what can be useful and take it up. Leave the rest here...

___________________

Finally, check out something about my post:

I don't know you, so I don't talk personal issues here. I don't talk about your personality. I'm basing my post to what YOU have said (and my experience as a musician) about your own works. If I'm wrong (already said that) correct me.

If you simply disagree, say so and I will try to explain once again, once I find some time.

Bottom line, I don't think I'm insulting you in any way. Even if I don't like your wonderful piece. And I'm NOT using the term wonderful as a sarcastic remark, but only because you used it.

I do think the theme is its own creature, so to speak. Maybe it can be improved, I just can't imagine it. Great composers often do things I couldn't have imagined, so like I said, I'm keeping an opend mind.

I'm not interested in word wrestling with you, beyond that, since it's all irrelevant in regards to what I wanted from my thread when I started it, and I've already explained everything there is to explain about my motives and relevant thoughts.

I certainly won't report anyone to the mods just because of annoying and irrational behaviour as long as it's even vaguely on topic, even if it violates some ideals set forth in the forum rules or where ever (the "ten commandments" I think it was).

Ok...

As I said, I don't think there's absolutely any violation of anything from any member (any, any, any... brrr...).

As a composer myself I do think of my every work as my baby! But I'm very open to changing things, getting errors fixed (typos of notes, or whatever else)...

In any case I think this thread can rest now (and I can go to bed, since it's after midnight where I live! ;))

Oh, there's one thing that requires elaboration perhaps:

My subjective experience vs Steve's subjective experience.

You are right, if I thought my theme couldn't possibly be improved upon even in principle, then there'd be no point for Steve to try it. But then, we must ask what are composers aiming for? Popularity? I think my musical sensibility is closer to those of the vast majority of people, so my judgmenet is probably the winner if we begin to judge things in terms of popularity. I've received a lot of positive feedback for my improvisation from non-musicians, so this isn't just idle speculation.

But if not popularity, then recognition among other classical composers? Well, I certainly don't have the potential to rise to such heights, due to the musical poverty of my environment during my critical periods of brain development, so that's something I'm simply not interested in.

So we are left with popularity and .... subjective experience. Of course, from my point of view, my own subjective experience is more important than Steve's. So yes, it doesn't make any sense for him to give me advise on improving my theme if from my perspective he is unable to actually improve it. And this is where proving that he can comes in.

Makes sense doesn't it? It does to me.

How do you count popularity? By the number of sales? The number of performances? The number of youtube views? Any of those can be an indication, but not the true thing...

Everyone (I think) starts composing for their own shake, as have you. If it wasn't for the Internet and youtube, the reception of your piece would be tiny (as it would for my works actually and most probably Steve's works, or Charles works, though I will admit that them being in the States would have better chances than me being in Greece).

BUT: Music is also about technique and experience. And apparently you are greatly lacking in these fields, while Steve (and other composers) isn't. So there's every logical sense to provide some feedback to this. No?

But again: You're missing the part were any composer can prove their worth (should they chose to, while it's not necessary) by their own works, not by reworking YOUR work. A composer who won't sit to provide your left hand in the other thread isn't incapable of doing or worst than you: He just doesn't want to do it!

Nikolas, I hope you've gone to bed. Way back on page 1 when Medium made his first reply to Chris Goslow (who seems to have disappeared from this conversation) he mentioned having bad experiences on forums. At the time that raised just a tiny red flag because the first response in this thread was positive yet Medium's first reply talks about bad experiences. Where the heck could that have come from? I think we now know. In 9 years on this forum I've never used the ignore function. I now find myself considering it. Remember when AJF's sig included a bit of advice about never wrestling with a pig?

I'm quite sure Medium never read the other thread where Mark Gordon took some forum advice and improved his piece. I feel certain at this point Medium will never take any advice we offer him and it would seem he'll never actually make the effort to find my music or yours and listen to it. After my last comment I don't have any desire to say anything further to Medium. So Nikolas my advice to you is don't feed the troll.

Here:

https://www.pianoworld.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/2078939/Music%20the%20kind%20of%20which%20you've.html

Notice BruceD's attempts to humiliate me for no reason at all. ALL I HAD DONE WAS OFFER WHAT I CONSIDER TO BE BEAUTIFUL MUSIC FOR PEOPLE TO LISTEN TO, FOR CHRIST'S SAKE. Instead of just telling me whether they liked the piece and why, you all start harassing me about whatever stupid sh*t that comes to your minds.

If Steve is considering ignoring me, he should know that my own subjective experience of him is certainly not more positive. So I'd say the bad experience is mutual. I'm a patient dude, but my patience ends when people can only see their own frustration and not that of their chosen "opponent", especially when everyone here STARTED CONFRONTATIONAL, Steve with his very first message in this thread. And then he complains when someone responds in kind? Calling me a troll is just what solipsistic self-righteous can't-see-the-forest-for-the-trees clowns like that would do.

You came to my thread with off-topic hostile comments, so who's the troll, fool? I never, ever asked for advice on how to compose. So why the bleep do you feel compelled to offer me any? I think I know better than you what I asked for when I started this thread, although that shouldn't be the case since I was very clear about that in my first message.

Ok

I will attempt to explain a few things, if I may.

In your 40something posts you've promoted your impros and melody, and nothing else. I don't even think you've said the word "Thank you". In fact I did a search and found out that you've never mentioned the word "thank". Perhaps the search function is broken, but I'm not sure I've seen it.

This means that you came here, to some members who are here for a LOONG time (decade?), with A LOT of posts (10,000 or more), with amazing credentials (MMus, PhDs, etc) and you are not thanking them for the time to listen...

You are promoting your works with words and descriptions that sounds extremely promising: "wonderful", "It's a chance of a lifetime basically", " I don't usually reach heights like these.", etc. And I'm afraid that the result is not such! Especially for people who have been dealing with music all their lives, are professionals in their music field and care deeply, not only for music, but for this place and the other members as well.

Honestly, just check the other thread here, listen to some music (after all if you compose you should (I assume) enjoy listening to music, so why not listen to some that's right here?), check the replies and how other people react and learn from it.

If you want to feel that I'm preaching, feel free. If you want to call me anything feel free. If you want to feel that I'm putting you down, I'm not, but feel free once more. There's no way I can make you read this post in the manner that I mean it: In a nice way.

PS. Bruce and Steve are two of the nicest forum members here (Morodiene as well), so it's very surprising that somehow all three seem to be attacking you, according to yourself... :-/

Quotations from three different messages of mine:

"Thanks for bringing this to my attention"

"Thank you. That comment I can relate to. The ending is perhaps my single favorite part even if it is short and simple."

"Thank you very much."

I've thanked every time someone has done something deserving of such a reaction. Obviously, I haven't thanked when someone has posted un-solicited suggestions or otherwise harassed me with nonsense. That would've been both insincere and, frankly, insane if I had.

Medium says I was confrontational in my first post in this thread. Having gone back and reread the post I find myself wondering where? I wrote a lengthy post which would best be described as "confrontational" then decided to take my own advice and "not wrestle with a pig." However. I did save it so I can post it later if need be. However, in the interest of giving the benefit of the doubt I thought I'd simply ask where was I confrontational in my first post. For your benefit I've quoted it here (and I didn't even fix the typo).

So to give you a few ideas was it one of the following: 1) when I said I almost nodded off while listening to your piece? That was simply relaying a fact, prior to that I said it was nice. 2) Was it my comment about the Goldberg Variations? They were after all composed to help a Count sleep. I don't find anything in the next paragraph that could be construed as confrontational. 3) Perhaps it was my offer to help by offering "ideas or suggestions on how to improve your thematic ideas?" Please tell me.

You have to read between the lines. The confrontation came from the implication that our perspectives were invalid and that our musical experiences as listeners weren't objectively valid regardless of how much we enjoyed our own creations. You offered advice no one had solicited, or at least I had not, anywhere, ever. You offered it despite realising on some level that this was the case. Then you used this realisation as a weapon, implying it was a personal deficit in us.

In any case, it is impolite to not restrict your advice to what has been solicited. Imagine, for example, being depressed and having all these people around you telling you to cheer up and how to cheer up. Do you really need that kind of attention in that context? Heck no! Yet people often impose their hyper social selves on such "deviants" quite without mercy. Sorry, but it makes me angry. It is a culture I despise because it's based on narcissism, lack of true empathy, and simply pure idiocy. I have no use for that in my personal life and I have no use for it in my internet life.