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Originally Posted by King Cole
You guys always do this. Talent is a term that has a problematic definition so we won't deal with that. Let's just assume he or she has a non-remarkable amount of talent. So the question is:


What is the best way to maximize one's piano abilities?!?

(Thank you JoelW)


Some random thoughts:

Practice a LOT.

(Actually, this is the same regardless of how much talent someone has.)

The real question is how people practice. And here, the answer lies less in what you do and more in how you think while practicing. When you're practicing, you have to keep an open ear and open mind. You have to invent exercises and motions for yourself. One of the most popular pieces of advice is "slow practice," and that's excellent advice, but it's very possible to practice slowly and get absolutely nothing done.

The reason slow practice works is because it affords people the opportunity to listen carefully to the sounds and feel and refine the motions they're making at the piano.

Developing one's musicianship and technique is a *CREATIVE ACTIVITY*. You have to have imagination and be observant.

Beyond that, you also need to spend time at the piano. Lots of it. You have to sit at the piano for hours and hours and hours and work on stuff. It's nice when it's efficient, but you have to do it even when you're not being efficient. Tired? Tough. Arms hurt? Figure out what you're doing wrong and fix it. Stuck? Get advice from a teacher. Just finished up a fantastic 6 hour practice session. Good for you; do it again tomorrow, the next day, and the next day.

It's also about habit. If you rely on passion or liking your repertoire to fuel your practice, you'll never make it. Nobody is 100% passionate about everything they're playing all the time. If you want to develop a great technique, then you have to be able to work *EVEN WHEN YOU DON'T WANT TO*. (This is true for most complex endeavors - I don't know a single successful lawyer, doctor, scientist, writer, visual artist, or businessman who didn't spend a significant amount of time working when they didn't want to. You work for the goal, not because it's fun every moment.

Put another way, it's easy to fall in love with a Rachmaninoff concerto and make big plans to do "whatever it takes" to learn it. It's much, much, MUCH harder to keep working when the honeymoon period is over (this is why self-taught amateurs tend to fail and one of the reasons a teacher is so important. A good teacher and weekly lessons gives you an incentive and reason to practice even when you don't want to. Contrary to popular belief, having a teacher isn't just about the advice they give, it's about inspiration and accountability.)

Hope there's something interesting in all of that. Happy practicing! laugh


"If we continually try to force a child to do what he is afraid to do, he will become more timid, and will use his brains and energy, not to explore the unknown, but to find ways to avoid the pressures we put on him." (John Holt)

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I think practice habits are important. If practicing 2 - 3 hours a day, for-real practice, is just part of your routine and it's something you do whatever else comes up and however much excited or frustrated you feel about your music, then you just end up getting stuff done in the long term.

Set aside that block of time and steel yourself for working through some challenges and you'll probably see results. Larry Bird had a great three point shot, and probably one of the reasons his shot was so good is because he spent 2 hours each day making the shot from different angles on the three point line. Like, try for shot, try again, make shot, move 2 inches, try for shot again.

I'm not an expert on virtuoso technique, but there's a reason the greats tout slow practice. And scales and arpeggios. It's not rocket science, but it is lots and lots of hours of serious work. And playing from an earnest inner place. To me, real greatness is just a big brew of hard work and a spiritual human lightness thing shining through because you have the technical tools to be able to express yourself and the humanity to have something meaningful to say and share with the world.

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Originally Posted by JoelW
OP didn't ask about doing the best with what you have. His post specifically deals with virtuosity. To become a virtuoso, one must be born with the necessary talent. Without this talent, no matter how dedicated, it is impossible to achieve such status.

I thought the OP clearly obviously unquestionably beyond the shadow of a doubt certainly meant what you thought, not the other thing that some people are saying, and that's what I still think -- unless he didn't, and then I don't. ha

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He did say "virtuoso", which in itself of course is the thing that you and Joel say. However it is possible that he meant what the others said.



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Originally Posted by ChopinAddict
He did say "virtuoso", which in itself of course is the thing that you and Joel say. However it is possible that he meant what the others said.

Well then it's also possible he meant becoming a hairdresser, or dermatologist, or centerfielder.... grin

Let's take a look....

Quote
What are the most effective ways to obtain virtuoso technique???

It's hard for me to see that as meaning anything but what Joel thought. Especially because of the triple ??? question marks and !!! exclamation marks. grin

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I have met MANY people in real life who don't know what virtuoso really means and just think it means very good/outstanding.
(See also Polyphonist's post.)



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Originally Posted by ChopinAddict
I have met MANY people in real life who don't know what virtuoso really means and just think it means very good.....

And it even sounds like you're not kidding.... grin

Sounds pretty odd.

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I have just noticed that the OP later clarified what he meant:

What is the best way to maximize one's piano abilities?!?



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Originally Posted by ChopinAddict
I have just noticed that the OP later clarified what he meant:

What is the best way to maximize one's piano abilities?!?

OK!
Just goes to show that one word says it all: You never know. ha
Good job by everyone who got it right.

It's still hard for me to see how people could think "virtuoso" means that. But it is what it is. grin

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Ugh...every post these days seems to devolve into meta discussions and semantic sparring.

If there's one thing about virtuosi, it's that they'd rather practice than sit around thinking about what "virtuoso" means. smile


"If we continually try to force a child to do what he is afraid to do, he will become more timid, and will use his brains and energy, not to explore the unknown, but to find ways to avoid the pressures we put on him." (John Holt)

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Originally Posted by Kreisler
....If there's one thing about virtuosi, it's that they'd rather practice than sit around thinking about what "virtuoso" means. smile

I didn't spend any time thinking about what it means -- I know what it means, and it's not this. ha

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Originally Posted by Kreisler
Ugh...every post these days seems to devolve into meta discussions and semantic sparring.

If there's one thing about virtuosi, it's that they'd rather practice than sit around thinking about what "virtuoso" means. smile


I agree with both of these statements

--

Guys, 'virtuoso' is not a word with room for interpretation. It's very specific.

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Originally Posted by Kreisler
Ugh...every post these days seems to devolve into meta discussions and semantic sparring.

If there's one thing about virtuosi, it's that they'd rather practice than sit around thinking about what "virtuoso" means. smile

It depends on what your definition of "is" is.. grin

Oh, and thank you for the other, longer post. Couldn't have agreed more (or said it any better).

I will add one thought (in the form of one of my favorite quotes) that I think thrums through your post, but you didn't explicitly mention:

"In order to be great, you must first be willing to give up being good."

This idea underlines everything Kreisler said. It's not just about practice, but practicing correctly. It's not about being able to play a piece, but about finding that nuance and perfecting it. It's not about being able to play "almost" perfectly even, or "almost" at the right dynamic, or getting it right "almost" every time. It's about taking what's good, breaking it down, finding what's wrong, fixing it, and putting it all back together again to create something better. Then, you repeat. Repeat. Repeat as many times as it takes until you get to something great. (And then, the next level is--there is still something greater to aspire to.)

In this endeavor, one must always seek to improve not only one's technical ability, but also one's ability to develop and grow. This is a lifelong pursuit of perfection, an undertaking in which the bad news is, you will most assuredly fall short (because true perfection cannot be achieved). And you MUST love the journey to reach that goal (because you will never actually reach the goal). Will you love every step you take? No. The one in the muck, or the twisted ankle, you will not enjoy. But those setbacks won't stop you from taking another step, and another, until you run out of days with which you can take steps (throw in the quote in my signature line here).

So, to that end, you have taken an appropriate first step -- asking questions. The next step is to get your technique "right". And what I mean by that is simply this: ask yourself two questions:

1. Do I experience pain when I play?
2. Am I playing the way I would like to be playing?

If #1 is a yes, stop what you're doing and seek expert advice immediately. You may cause more damage than you know. #1 aside, if #2 is a no, then there is an issue with your technique that is causing it. Technique is built upon movement, so if there is a technique issue, that really means there is a movement issue.

It is impossible to describe every single movement you need to make, but there are some basic ones (up, down, left, right, in, out, axial left/right sometimes called "rotation", and axial up/down), and a good teacher will be able to help there.

So, in terms of concept, put the "big picture" in your head, and then drill down into each vertical to find the gaps. Once you've found them, close them by any means available to you. smile


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you have to work intelligently, obsessively, possibly as many four hours a day on just technical exercises (according to Sara Davis Buechner) or practice as many as 10-12 hours a day overall with a large percentage still on technique (various accounts of Liszt), and you have to be persistent

Originally Posted by Calvin Coolidge
Nothing in the world can take the place of Persistence. Talent will not; nothing is more common than unsuccessful men with talent. Genius will not; unrewarded genius is almost a proverb. Education will not; the world is full of educated derelicts. Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent. The slogan 'Press On' has solved and always will solve the problems of the human race.


Originally Posted by Nicolakirwan
In my life... I've learned that oftentimes brilliance comes from being able to see things from a different angle and how to figure out how it all comes together rather than just memorizing, learning by rote, and regurgitating what one has absorbed. Real learning is about figuring out how something works and engaging it in a way that makes it all make sense to you--breaking things down until they "click". The ability to do this, I believe, is very much a part of that amorphous concept of "talent" or "giftedness".


Originally Posted by Claude Frank
There is absolutely no substitute for slow practice. Let me embellish this by saying that, ninety-nine times out of a hundred, this slow practice should be very musical. There are very few instances in which slow mechanical practice is beneficial. Musical slow practice is the key


Originally Posted by Dr. Clay Hyght
When it comes to training (and life in general for that matter), many people erroneously think that all you have to do to succeed is work hard. Unfortunately, this isn't true. You have to work intelligently.


Originally Posted by John McDonald
The cause of confusion prevailing in your mind, that weakens your thoughts, is the false belief that there is a power or powers outside of yourself, greater than the power within you.


Originally Posted by recent Teodor post
The years you spent playing the piano mean nothing at all. How many days were there in those years when you actually sat down and had a nice concentrated mindful practice? Not that many I bet just like it is with me. If you did practice correctly (includes me) for these years you'd be playing difficult repertoire right now and that "advanced" arrangement of a piece would be the easiest piece you've ever seen.

Have you seen some of those kids that play terribly difficult pieces at age 7-8? Some younger? Well they practiced a lot and they practiced correctly. Someone was there to guide them and show them the way then they liked it so much that they kept at it constantly every single day for a few years. There is nothing very special about them EXCEPT the remarkable dedication that have at such an early age. We on the other hand, as adult learners, have so many other things in our mind that we cannot afford to become really obsessed and dedicated. If you have to balance school, piano and a job and God knows what other responsibilities, it's not easy at all. This is why it's crucial we learn how to best use what little time we have to play the piano and work at it.

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Mr. Pickle, one of these days, I aspire to write something you quote in one of these posts. grin


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This might not make any sense...

Practising slowly has no effect if you aren't "careful".

For me, practising slowly is like practising fast but in slow motion.
This might sound obvious but I will try to explain.
When you play a piece fast, you don't have time to make big movements for example: shifting hand positions and picking up fingers way too high.
So summing it up: you need to be aware of the speed you're going to play the piece at, so that you can be economical with your movements when practising slowly as that will make a difference when you play it up to speed.


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I think many of the last 20 or so posts have all but forgotten about the need for a great teacher to explain/teach technique. Although the OP still hasn't even told us about his present level, my impressions is he may be a relative beginner on the piano, and that means there is tons for him to be taught about technique in order for any practice he does to be on the right kind of things as opposed to being highly inefficient or even a waste of time.

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Start at age 4.


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Originally Posted by pianoloverus
I think many of the last 20 or so posts have all but forgotten about the need for a great teacher to explain/teach technique. Although the OP still hasn't even told us about his present level, my impressions is he may be a relative beginner on the piano, and that means there is tons for him to be taught about technique in order for any practice he does to be on the right kind of things as opposed to being highly inefficient or even a waste of time.

I don't think it's a requirement, but it certainly is a catalyst that acts both as an accelerant, and to vastly improve your chances of success.

PS, did you miss where I wrote this:
Quote
It is impossible to describe every single movement you need to make, but there are some basic ones (up, down, left, right, in, out, axial left/right sometimes called "rotation", and axial up/down), and a good teacher will be able to help there.

grin


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My take on the teacher issue:

I've met a lot of pianists in my life, and the number of expert pianists I've met who did not have regular instruction at some point in their lives is Zero.

A lot of amateurs seem to believe that they can get the same thing a teacher could give them from various sources on the internet - here, YouTube, whatever, but in 10 years of reading these forums, not once has a self-taught pianist posted a video of themselves demonstrating expert level well-rounded musicianship. Occasionally someone will have shoved the notes of some fairly difficult piece into their hands by brute force and repetition, but that's about it. (Not to minimize the feat - it's impressive to learn a bravura arrangement of Final Fantasy or whatever, but cramming one piece into your hands doesn't make you a pianist any more than my installing my own car battery and headlights makes me a mechanic.)


"If we continually try to force a child to do what he is afraid to do, he will become more timid, and will use his brains and energy, not to explore the unknown, but to find ways to avoid the pressures we put on him." (John Holt)

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