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Sorry, I made a mistake describing what happens on the Mac in Kontakt when the samples are unmounted after the pre-load. I was writing from my memory of hearing only short sounds and hadn't tried it in a while. I just went and tried it again. On the Mac if I unmount the external disk containing the samples after the preload, I only get a short pop when a key is pressed after the FIRST key press. It appears that Kontakt realizes that the sample library is missing after that first key press, and then it no longer plays the preloaded samples (or attempts to mute them with just a slight pop sound). However, each time you release a key, you get a short note which may be the release sample for each key. i.e. you get a pop when the key is pressed and then regardless of how long you hold the key you apparently get a portion of the release sample when you release the key. That must have been the short sounds I remembered earlier. Apparently this works differently on the PC version, but that is what happens on my Mac (I tried it several times in a couple different ways just now). Sorry for the earlier confusion.

Interestingly, Ivory II works exactly the opposite, and more like what you described for Kontakt on the PC. I just tried it (I hadn't tried it before). On Ivory II it indeed plays the preloaded sample portion for each key pressed after the disk containing the sample library is removed, but it doesn't play any portion of the release samples for each note when a key is released. Perhaps the release samples are not preloaded at all, or more likely after it can't load the remaining part of each sample it doesn't try to play the release sample. The latter seems likely because each key press produces a separate Error message in the Ivory II display.

Although I concede that a few seconds won't change the maximum - i.e - it won't affect the demand on the disk when playing big, long chords with the sustain pedal. I suppose it would mainly affect the average data rate, which isn't very interesting. Since you were using the maximum memory in Ivory, you were doing a fair comparison with Kontakt, using it's maximum pre-load.

The memory size can change the maximum throughput that a disk can support, though. At least, that's what I have observed in Kontakt. The reason is simple: as the pre-load size is increased, the amount of data that is read from each sample each time a sample is accessed also increases, and that makes the accesses more efficient. (because the disk is spending more time reading sequentially, which it can do very well, and less time moving the heads, which is very slow) However, even if Ivory is the same as Kontakt in this regard, since you were already using the maximum in Ivory, there was nothing more you could do to improve it.

[technical side note]
As I've said elsewhere, when doing repeat testing, it is important to understand that there is secondary caching occurring by Windows, over and above the sample pre-load. So, if you do a test after rebooting your machine, and then repeat the test using the same performance (or MIDI file), you may get a vastly better result, simply because the system performed extra caching of the samples that were used in your performance. Unfortunately reloading the instrument or even restarting Kontakt does NOT clear this cache, at least in Windows. So, in Windows, to avoid rebooting the machine every time, the utility
RamMap (command: Empty | Empty Standby List) can be used. Unload the instrument, run the utility, and then re-load the instrument. This procedure will allow different settings to be tried without rebooting the machine inbetween each test.

Greg.

I just wanted to thank you for the answers, especially Macy - wow! I'm very glad you decided to write all this down, and I'm sure anyone searching for this topic in the future will be too. Kawai James, I hadn't considered that since I've heard smaller SSD's tend to be slower than the bigger models, but I think I will take your advice and go with two SSD's.

I don't want to disrupt the discussion any further, it's very interesting to read what's going in detail. I've certainly learned a thing or two - I appreciate it.

Thank you all,
Patrick

Yeah, thanks for this thread folks...

Let me just mention, I too had the problem of pops and crackles with Ivory II, when pressing down on the sustain pedal...

I've managed to fix it (well, kind of), by using Elgato's Thunderbolt SSD 240GB.

Having said that, with the benefit of hindsight, and having watched reviews by other users/commentators (particularly on Youtube), I think it may be more advisable to go with e.g. a Samsung 840 series SSD, perhaps 500GB, with a Thunderbolt adapter, e.g. the one by Seagate. Overall, this configuration apparently performs vastly better than the Elgato Thunderbolt SSD product. I mean it apparently achieves read/write speeds in the region of 300MB/s; whereas the Elgato SSD achieves something like 100MB/s write and 220MB/s read.

To be fair, the Elgato SSD works just fine for my requirements, it's just that I've realised, in hindsight, I could have gotten a more powerful set-up for the same price. I mean, the Elgato cost me approx £400; had I gone for a Thunderbolt adapter (£100), Samsung SSD 500GB (£250) and a separate Thunderbolt cable (£50) the overall cost would have been roughly the same, with more memory and faster performance (apparently).

I would also mention that, when "testing", the Elgato performs quite comfortably with a 64 voice buffer (i.e., rapidly and repeatedly tapping on an unrealistic number of keys), with no pops/crackles/dropouts; I think perhaps under more "normal" playing conditions, I could probably manage quite easily with a 32 sample buffer (I mean, at the moment I'm trying to learn relatively simple stuff, by e.g. Einaudi).

So overall, yes, using an SSD for memory, with Thunderbolt for I/O, has, for all practical purposes, fixed the problem for me, although of course at a fairly hefty price.

pv88, are you related to my mate Richard?

Sorry James, just curious, was this a PW defect again dropping your post in a wrong thread, wasn't it - I can't see a post of PV88 anywhere to realate to on this topic?

Yes, it appears that pv88 deleted his post.

He originally asked if the user above, Vijay '82, was related to golfer Vijay Singh.

I am holding out on moving my Ivory II pianos to my macbook until Thunderbolt external drives are available at a more reasonable price.

Macy- you are using firewire for your external SSD on your imac? (by the way- you consider a two year old computer to be "retirable..?" man you like to spend money on tech hardware!) Macbooks won't support USB 3.0, right?

What's wrong with simply getting an internal SSD with enough space?

Unless you plan on installing all of the pianos a 256GB or even 128GB SSD should be fine.

i assume you are addressing my inquiry... i use the macbook for a lot of other stuff and i'm a believer in segregating the samples on a separate drive from my OS files etc. maybe that's not necessary with an SSD- but 128GB/256GB would be pushing it for me as far as not enough capacity. perhaps if i used it only for pianos (a future possibility- but i think i'd get an ultrabook for that purpose)- as i currently do with an older desktop - that would be a good strategy.

thanks..

I would say, for Ivory II : a ssd, AND a powerful computer.

Mine has a ssd, but is a little old now (Core 2 duo at 2Ghz, Windows 7 4 GB ram).
I cannot play without glitches Ivory, so I don't use it anymore and play now with Galaxy Vintage D, it's much less consuming I haven't problems now.

Yes. I bought an external drive enclosure with a Firewire 800 and USB 3 port and dropped a 256 GB Samsung 840 SSD in it. It took about 10 minutes to assemble and it works perfectly. If you are concerned about cost that is a pretty inexpensive way to go. Get the Samsung 840, not 840 Pro, to save money. The 840 is perfect for this application because you will seldom write to it so wear out isn't an issue.

Firewire 800 is fast enough for Ivory II with room to spare (you need an SSD for its fast random access reads, not a faster drive interface). But USB 3 is there if another piano comes out that needs more bandwidth. I don't see a future in Thunderbolt for this (or many?) application. USB 3 is much less expensive, plenty fast enough, and will be ubiquitous. All current Macs (except the now 3-year old Mac Pro) have USB 3. I'm waiting for the new Mac Pro (expected this summer) before replacing my current piano iMac. (Yes, I'm an engineer and love tech stuff. Fortunately I can afford it.)

yeah, i'm one of the folks that has a 3 yr old macbook pro. so no USB 3. but i do have firewire...

thanks for the input on the 840.

Is there something about Ivory 2 that makes it more resource-demanding than Ivory 1, or than the various Galaxy pianos? My old laptop ran fine with Ivory 1 and with the Galaxy items, despite its paltry 1.7 GHz Core Duo, 2 GB RAM, and 330 GB/7200 RPM drive under Win XP. So whuzzup with Ivory 2?

I recently moved to a 2.8 GHz i7-940 quad-core, 8 GB RAM, 1 TB drive. Will Ivory 2 run on this box? Or do we all need to move to SSD to run Ivory 2?

I never had Ivory 1 so I can't compare them. But the Ivory II American D definitely required a faster (faster random access) drive than the previous Ivory II pianos. It's samples are longer, but the Ivory II plug-in and standalone (Mac) engine were also changed when it was released, so that may also have something to with that.

In my experience (and measurements) the Vintage D takes a lot more CPU than Ivory II (perhaps because the Vintage D samples are compressed and have to be uncompressed in real-time, or Kontakt is just CPU hungrier than Ivory II). But the Vintage D is MUCH less demanding on the drive.

So do you need an SSD with Ivory II now? Synthogy (Ivory II developer) says minimum requirement is a 7200 rpm drive or SSD, connected via Firewire 800, SATA, or faster. I'd say the 7200 rpm drive is now on the edge unless you want to limit the number of notes you can play at once.

Using Ivory II with a Core 2 Duo laptop (T7300, 2 GHz, 4 GB RAM - handful of years old), Win 7 SP1-64 and an external Lacie FW HDD (7200 rpm). Works perfect in tandem with am RME UC interface.

I do recall upgrading my laptop HDD a few years back to a faster spec SATA . . . uncertain to what degree that would affect things.

I had my hard drive replaced in this laptop. It's 72 or 7800rpm. It's a PC.
Still... I just now had the notes drop when holding down four of them. Was playing something not complicated. Yes, two hands. No big deal. The software shows the info coming from the midi controller keyboard.
If I change settings on my keyboard. I also have to restart Ivory. Otherwise, nothing. And it still shows info coming from the keyboard.
I only once had the pop and crackle bit. Restarted and ok.
I got my eyes on a new Mac. By the first of the year. SSD is at the top of the list.

yeah- i have a 7 yr old dell core duo desktop with a second 7200 RPM HDD for samples and it runs ivory II perfectly. i think i have 8 GB RAM (or maybe 16? whatever the max is for that box...)

i think the conclusion to all this is to either have an SSD on a laptop and basically just have it dedicated for pianos. OR, get an external HDD for a laptop and a second HDD or external device for a desktop. i just think as long as you don't get operating system stuff interfering with the HDD feeding the back end of the sample you will be fine. I've never had any problems with Ivory II/ Cantabile player. I have had some issues with Kontakt- not deal killers but it just doesn't run as smoothly for me- probably gets back to Macy's very perceptive post just above- my older box RAM access might not be as good and that penalizes Kontakt use over Cantabile use....

Agreed, but I don't even see the need for a second drive or SSD ... as long as you dedicate the box to piano, and shut off the non-essential/overhead junk.

I used to run pianos on my 7-year-old Dell crappy laptop. It was marginal, but worked fine as long as I disabled AV and wireless ... and ran nothing but Kontakt. But if I turned on wireless and started up Firefox, the piano would hiccup. If I ran anything more intense than a browser, the piano basically fell apart.

OK, but all that was with a ghetto laptop.

I recently moved, and the new home has no space in the living room for the piano. So I put the piano in my office ... next to my much newer HP desktop computer. So I no longer use the laptop. I loaded the desktop with all the piano software.

I can load a bunch of pianos (with AV still running) alongside all of the regular desktop assorted apps. Another person can use the computer for normal stuff while I'm playing the various Galaxy pianos through Kontakt ... and no problems.

That's with a 3-year-old desktop, a 2.8 GHz quad-core i7 930 with 8 GB RAM, Win 7, and a plain old 1 GB 7200 RPM internal drive. No SSD. No external drive.

If I were running a DAW and were doing things that heavily taxed the computer, maybe there would be problems. But for JUST piano(s)? I have to wonder why Ivory 2 would not work here.

MacMacMac, it probably would work fine on the single hard drive. i just found a 7200 HD for peanuts on amazon and wanted to prove to myself i could install a second drive and some extra RAM. really nothing more than that. one of those tool-time projects.