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Hi, all!

I recently moved and had to leave my upright behind as it isn't suitable in my apartment. I've been reading about the Kawai VPC1 and have concluded that it's the product I've been looking for; I want a top notch action and don't care about other sounds, extra controls, etc. Portability is not a factor as it will stay on a stand 99% of the time. Couple Q's, though:

1) Are there similar products from other manufacturers that I should consider? Again: top notch action, no bells and whistles, etc.

2) What else beyond the following will I need to make the setup work? Keep in mind I'm a virtual piano/controller newb:

a. VPC1
b. Computer
c. Software (Pianoteq? Galaxy?)
d. USB Cable?
e. Headphones or speakers connected to the computer
f. Stand/bench

Please let me know if I'm missing anything; I'm budgeting carefully for this setup and I don't want any surprises.

Thank you very much!

If you're considering using a software with a big sample size like Ivory (which is my personal favorite), then make sure your computer can run the virtual piano properly. I have a pretty beefy computer and run Ivory off a 10000rpm disk, but I still get dropouts/stuttering after the piano has been running for a while. I'm guessing this is because the disk is also my system disk, so you might want to consider getting a separate hard disk specifically for your software pianos. Or maybe get a SSD, which is what I'm planning to do in order to sort out my audio issues.

Also, you might want to invest in a sound card in order to keep your latency down. You can get still pretty decent performance with your integrated sound card if you use Asio4all drivers though, but then the drawback is that your VST host needs exclusive access to all system audio in order for it to work. So basically you can't play your software pianos while playing back other audio sources, which sucks if you for instance like playing along with with backing tracks or youtube tutorials. By the way, I think this is only a problem with Windows, so if you're on a mac, you should be fine.

Good luck with your VPC-1! I'm buying one myself this summer, I can't wait!

What you have listed there will work. However, a lot of people in the forum use an external audio interface. These typically have nice low-latency drivers, good audio output, analog controls, and a relatively good headphone amp.

Newer computers are fast enough that latency is often acceptable and they also sometimes have pretty good sound, but it seems to me that the majority of people that use software pianos end up using an external interface for one reason or another.

Example interfaces: M-Audio FastTrack Pro USB, Presonus Audiobox USB, Focusrite Scarlett 2i2. Also there's a budget option in the behringer UCA202, though it lacks analog controls, balanced outputs, and some other things.

You can always start out without an interface and get one later if you need/want one.

1) At the same price point I don't think anything exists quiet like the VPC1. If you have a larger budget you could consider the Kawai CA65/95 or the Yamaha hybrids give you a real action. What kind of music do you play?

2) b, c I use Pianoteq and Galaxy D myself on a windows 7 laptop. Latency was a problem at first but was solved by installing the Asio drivers. I like both and switch back and forth. The Galaxy sounds better because it is sampled but I find Pianoteq is a lot more responsive. If you get started with just Pianoteq you won't need a very beefy computer.

I'll be interested to see what's suggested for the keyboard stand etc. because I will be making the same decisions soon myself.

gvfarns: I wanted to use my Dell Latitude running Win7 on a Core i5 proc (2.4 gHz), 4gb RAM, with a 7.2k rpm hdd. All I can find on the audio driver is 'IDT 92HDxxx HD Audio'. Any idea if this setup will work?

I've been toying with building an HTPC and having it do double duty as my piano machine (it would never be used for both at the same time) but budget is a factor; I don't want to go over $2,200 total on the piano project if I can help it, and I don't have a budget for the pc right now.

Vid: I play mostly classical and a little ragtime. Budget is tight, so while the 65 and 95 are tempting I'm going to stick with the VPC1.

I think I will start with Pianoteq, especially if it's a little less demanding.

Thanks for your help!

Well, I have a much better latency with Asio4allv2 and buit-in Realtek audio chipset than with my Motu audioexpress soundcard ! it's the same with IvoryII, Vintage D, or Pianoteq.

However, I think the quality of the sound is a bit better with the soundcard, for the medium frequency range only (no différences in the bass and treble).
I regret a little having bought the Motu, but for the connectics it's better using trs jacks than the laptop's minijack audio out.


For IvoryII, I recommand that you use a powerful computer. The ssd is the best hard disk but if the PC isn't topnotch, you have still glitches/crackles, unless you set a high latency that is unplayable.
I have a ssd and a core 2 duo laptop at 2.0 GHz and 4 Gb Ram : I cannot use Ivory without problems, with a low latency setting.

For Pianoteq those specs will be just fine, I think. Pianoteq doesn't really require much in terms of hardware resources. However, I personally don't really care so much for the Pianoteq sound. I mean, it's not bad, but to me it's just "okay". And when you've spent all that money on a great keybed for the physical experience of a grand piano, skipping out on the sound part seems like a strange thing to do. I would recommend checking out Ivory or Galaxy. Maybe Galaxy is better if you're worried about your hardware, because like I said, Ivory can be pretty demanding.

About the driver - Asio4all is a free driver you can download which works on most integrated sound cards. If you decide to not buy an audio interface, you will absolutely need this in order to get a decently low latency. You can download it here: http://www.asio4all.com/

I am using now a very same config: Latitude E5430/I5 4 Core 2.5 gHz, 8 GB RAM WIN7 64bit which I think not more utilized as 4 GB with a single instrument) an both are SW instruments functioning fine. I can even combine the two without any problem as VSTi-s within the DAW (Reaper). I am using EMU0404 USB. (I couldn't bring the onboard sound card with ASI4ALL to get any meager tone out of it but I don't bother much because of the inferior sound quality of the built-in IDT Audio.

I can set latency to 4-5 ms, total latency should be some 8-10 ms.

I would also recommend to play with both SW instruments, because they give so much nice but different experience. I You have a good sampled instrument (the Galaxy vintage D, or Ivory II e.g.) I would recommend to get Pianoteq as the second one, not another sampled instrument, to get a completely another perspective of digital instruments.


Pianoteq 3 and 4 were running on my 7 years old 2 Core Latitude 620 without any problem with the lowest latency, while the SW pianos were on their limit.


While generally true, my EMU0404 USB is sounding audibly better with its native driver than with Asio4ALL. Latency is practically the same and sufficiently low with both drivers.

Yeah, I agree, Asio4all isn't the best solution. Maybe the audio quality is not as good (I haven't been able to hear a difference myself though), but mostly because of the major annoyance of not being able to playback other audio sources while the Asio4all driver is active.

Empty space, so far I have not been able to cure the latency issues I am having with the VPC and my MacBook Pro (similar hardware specs to your computer, different OS of course). The problem is NOT the VPC1 which runs very nicely with my Nord Electro. So be prepared to fiddle around a while with your computer when using software.

PS. Btw, I don't think I am overly demanding re latency.

Roland builds the A88. No bells and whistles at all, it has no onboard sounds. It weights just 15 kg, it has an Ivory Feel-G plastic action and it's cheaper.

Just added for comparison. If portability and price are not an issue, I'd choose the VPC as the action is wooden and very superior.

EmptySpace, I believe your questions have already been answered, however I'll still take a bite.



No, not really. Roland have the A88, however I believe this is more intended to be a portable, light-weight controller, so I doubt the action quality is comparable with the VPC1. There's also the LACHNIT FLK, which is handmade (?) in Austria and utilises a modified Fatar action, but I believe it's rather more expensive than the VPC1. Finally, there are a number of Doepfer MIDI controllers, however again, they're built around Fatar actions.



That should be fine, provided your computer is relatively modern and a good specification. I would recommend an audio interface for lower latencies and higher quality output. A USB cable is included with the VPC1 (just a standard USB A-->B cable). As for a stand, I always recommend the K&M table stands - a little pricey, but German build quality, and solid as a rock. I have one hear supporting an MP8II (and my Nord Electro).

I hope this helps - good luck with your new setup!

Cheers,
James
x

EDIT:
Just saw this video over on the Pianoteq forum - very impressive amount of dynamic expression and control.

I wish the VPC1 had at least one acoustic piano sound.
Searching for the best touch possible, in a not to big design, this Kawaï is great.
But when playing live with Sample Libraries (Vintage D, Ivory), this is very important for me to have an emergency solution if the software crashes, or the PC...

+1

Or an optional module to accompany the VPC1 that can be loaded with the SW pianos.

Moreover, if the VPC1 market takes off, then value-added retailers may sell 'turn-key packages'.

As I understand. You can pick up a used Korg like mine for about thirty bucks?
Mine isn't for sale.
EDIT: I just checked. Doh! Maybe a little bit more.

Wow! Thanks for the great info, everyone. I'll admit, I'm pretty excited about the VPC1. I feel like it is exactly the product I was looking for (was previously considering an MP6 or rd300nx). It's all about the action for me.

While I have the experts' attention, I may as well ask a couple more (remember, I'm a newb!):

1) Can someone help me understand the latency factor a little better? I've never used a controller before, so I really don't know how discernible it is or what impact it has on the playing experience.

2) Does my whole plan fall apart when I tell you that I'm going to have to start with some cheap headphones or crap speakers? Probably headphones (apartment life sucks!). Any recommendations on the lower end of the price spectrum?

3) Am I hearing exactly what I'll hear coming out of the VPC1 when I listen to examples at the software companies' websites (except for the playing, of course!)?

4) I'm very excited about this purchase, but I'm a little concerned about availability. I'm probably three weeks out from a purchase. Does anybody know when the VPC1 will be generally available? Sweetwater is my vendor of choice due to their support of these fine forums and their proximity (about 1 hour away; if I knew they had one on hand, I'd go tomorrow to try it out!)

Thanks again; these forums are awesome!

When you run a virtual instrument through a computer, there will always be some latency because of the fairly complicated process of reading and playing back the samples (or modeling them). The biggest factor is your sound card and its drivers, though I guess you could have some latency if your system specs are not good enough too. However, if your system is not good enough you will probably run into dropout/audio artifact issues before the latency becomes a problem.

Latency has a huge impact on playing experience - too high latency makes it almost impossible to play properly. You will definitely notice it if you have more than about 15ms of latency, I can tell you that. Anything under 10ms of latency should be good enough, though of course the lower the better.

Well, your plan doesn't necessarily fall apart, no, but of course your playing experience isn't going to be as good as it would've been had you gotten a proper set of headphones. Anyway, having to go with headphones instead of speakers isn't really a bad thing; in my experience you get a lot more sound quality for your money that way. As for recommendations, look around the forum, there has been plenty of headphone discussions lately.


Yeah, what you're hearing is pretty much how it'll sound when you play yourself. Though of course, the experience of playing back the sounds yourself means a lot. For instance, I thought I liked the Galaxy virtual piano from listening to it around the web, but when I tried it myself I didn't really like the sound at all.

Note that it is not easy to measure latency - some software instruments show you a number, but this number (I believe) only shows part of the actual latency, i.e. the time the software instrument needs for processing. I am not aware of any easily available, precise measure of overall latency (except your playing experience, which is qualitative rather than quantitatively precise, of course).

Oh oh, the latency ghost is back !! Wonder if I should cancel my VPC1 order and go hardware after all .....mmmm....noooop ; too nice this action ! First I'll try Pianoteq (presumably lowest latency) - then we'll see.

By the way - I will NOT be using a soundcard in first instance. Instead I go digital out from my MacBook Pro and through a small DA converter through a passive volume controller into my speakers. So no extra audio-interface hardware or audio drivers in between; should do the trick I think.

Sidenote:
Also no hassle with fiddling with internal audio routing and routing through an extra device with sometimes different sample-rates and buffer settings , that at times don't switch to the right value cause multiple SW sources try to access different audio devices with different settings. E.g. try running your SW synths at 48KHz and run iTunes at 44.1 at the same time. It can become messy . Now it's one master device (Build-in Audio), one sample-rate, one buffer setting, no routing or re-routing. Works like a charm so far. And I had many audio-interfaces passing my set-up during the last few years...Must say that in my setup I only need stereo out, otherwise an extra interface is the only option.

Well, pick your poison. If you want this, you can just get an MP10 or another stage piano. The downside is that you pay for the internal stuff that generates those sounds, which is a waste if you don't use/need it.

I don't get the feeling that the VPC is particularly intended for gigging musicians. It's heavy and as you point out has no onboard sounds. There are lots of pianos for that. I see it as designed for home or studio use where there is no emergency and onbaord sounds and functions are a waste. I feel like it was designed because of requests specifically for a good controller with NO sounds many times over in this very forum.

If it had some kind of sound built in, it would be more expensive, and that would be a terrible waste.