Piano World Home Page Forums Our Most Popular Forums Piano Forum Are they also-rans or excellent?

Actually Marty, two of the posters so are techs, and a couple are dealers.

"Materials", i.e. "specs" are often similar even between such pianos as Brodmann and some of the Euros.

"Construction methods" less so.

"Unique designs" even less, with "unique" not necessarily meaning "superior"

1000 little industry secrets - not at all.

Which is exactly why the French will give you a tour of their wineries but never tell you *how* exactly they make their
Bordeaux...

Norbert

Alma, let me ask you another question. Are you asking if these "name-brand" intermediate grade pianos are as good and solid as the similar product from Yamaha or Kawai? That is their immediate competition, after all.

Follow-up to Laguna Greg.

In the 'intermediate' and 'entry' areas, Boston doesn't sound like Kawai and Essex doesn't sound like Pearl River.

An added thought is that some guy wrote a book, grouping by price point primarily, for general categories. It's the 'you get what you pay for' approach.

Norbert, I absolutely adore you!

But you are evading. I wasn't asking the Vigneron how he makes his wine, I was asking the oenologue what he thinks. And the oenologue is paid not to lie.

Gros Bisous Bien Fort,

Absolutely not! Do not confuse the static touchweight with the way an instrument actually feels and responds in play.

Again - I say no. Very, very few people could positively identify a piano's brand by tone 100% of the time.

It is easy for a lay-person to try to render down and simplify things, creating a black and white image. But reality is comprised of more than a few shades of gray.

The saying goes that the devil is in the details. I would counter by saying that divinity is in the nuance.

The dealers I am aware of, but I don't know if they are techs. I don't think that Norbert or Rich are techs, but they do have a great deal of experience in all facets of the piano biz. Prior to your statement, none of the posters identify themselves as technicians.

This IMHO is the killer question.

If "yes" then we can't talk about Japanese pianos 30-40 years old.

At that point most of them have seen their best days and few [if any] are deemed worthy contenders for rebuilding.
40 years, that's it?

If "no", then some are either highly overpriced with others being 'under-priced'

To know exactly "which is which" appears to be the "killer".

To avoid confusion why not simply pay similar [or save up a bit] to get Estonia?

Norbert

However, a person who is familiar with a range of different instruments, would be able to identify which instrument is a Steinway and which is the Mason in a blindfold test. It's not 'name that piano' from a single sample, but rather, 'which is which?' That's not difficult at all.

Yes, Greg, that is what I am asking. I am asking if these intermediate-grade offerings from companies with impressive pedigrees (e.g., Bechstein's "W. Hoffmann Tradition" line, Bluthner's "Irmler Europe" line, Schimmel's "Vogel" line, etc.) are as good and solid as the Kawai "RX" and Yamaha "C" lines. Are they better than, equal to, or worse than the Kawai and Yamaha competition?

Actually, 48 grams isn't 48 grams. The dynamic feel of an instrument can vary wildly even though the static measurement is the same. Depends on what's happening -- moving a piece of lead a ways down, compressing a spring or accelerating a mass, or a mix of all three.

Thank you Marty!

So? Let's talk about it! What do YOU think?

(sheesh, I've never had such trouble getting people to express an opinion...)

Cheers!

Great! What variations do you observe? Can they be characterized by brand? How does a specific maker's action design affect the touch?



I didn't say 100% of the time, but I still disagree on that point. Over the last 100+ years, S&S has made certain that their instruments have the most distinctive and consistent timbres of any piano made even during their bad years. But that's just me. As far as getting the lay person to hear the differences, it has been my experience that such a skill can be taught, with enough time and training, and a little talent. But then again, that's just me.



I agree completely!

All new pianos then, practically non-vintaged. Let's make this easy. The Bostons, after all, are brand new practically. But if there's been a shift in quality or character over time, I'd love to hear somebody, anybody talk about it.

So. What do you think?

You know Alma, it's getting rather humorous that nobody will answer this question, or even discuss it.

cheers!

My two cents:

The reason that these premium makers - you mention Bechstein, Bluthner, Steinway and Schimmel - offer these lower priced lines is to sell to people who have a lower budget. The Irmler line isn't actually made by Bluthner, it's selected by Bluthner to be sold in their outlets. The pianos have been made in various factories, notably Young Chang, Samick and Pearl River. There are some made in Europe, badged 'Irmler Europe', but I don't know which factory made them. Bluthner's 'second' line is actually Haessler, which conforms more or less to Bechstein's Hoffman Tradition series.

The Bechstein Hoffmann and the Bluthner Haessler, are still actually fairly expensive pianos when compared with Yamaha or Kawai, they are priced probably at the mid point between say, Yamaha and Bluthner. Bluthner is actually less expensive than Bechstein in the UK, which is not a measure of their quality but more a measure of how retail works. Both are excellent pianos.

Whether or not these lower priced lines (Irmler, Hoffmann, Vogel, Brodmann, May-Berlin) are as 'good' as Yamaha and Kawai, well, perhaps Hoffmann tradition is. I've played some of their uprights and thought they were just beautiful. They are priced very well - £10,000 for a 132 cm upright.

Brodmann PE is in a lower class than Yamaha, and Irmler (non Europe) is in a lower class still. Their prices reflect this in the UK.

It's not that Yamaha and Kawai don't have a good pedigree - they do. They build pianos in all price ranges, Yamaha being a good example with the GC series, right up to the CF series. Kawai with their GE and Shigeru at either end of their spectrum. The instruments coming from these manufacturers are amongst the best in their price range, and the upper end of their output, the handbuilts, equal many of their competitors.

Now, whether or not the other manufacturers in the lower price range (I call it low price if it costs £10-20k for a 6foot grand when a Steinway A is 65,000....), for me, No. I would prefer to spend my money on a Yamaha or Kawai, or find an older instrument from the high end market and have it comprehensively rebuilt, which is a little more expensive but well worth it if you get a good one.

I actually own a Brodmann, and it has had it's problems with consistency, it takes a bit more tech time to keep it right, and I've had the top section restrung due to a fault. The piano sounds good now, and for the money (FOR THE MONEY!!) at the time I bought it, I couldn't have bought better. They are probably still amongst the best IN their class.

Since I am a concert pianist, and despite recession my concert workload has more than doubled in the last two years, the Brodmann is not coping as well as it did before, and I am searching for my next victim, which I'm hoping will be with me in the next 18 months - of course, you'll all be the first to know what I buy and I already have my sights zoning in closer to my choice....

Hi Joe,

Thank you for having the courage to chime in.

I'll start by saying I took a look at your site, and I have to say it's just GORGEOUS-LOOKING!!! And your idea for that fugue is lovely, really captivating.

I always find it disappointing that the few people who can actually appreciate a really fine instrument can almost never afford them. What are you thinking of buying next? Or rather, what attracts you?

Cheers!

Which makes me think.

If a piano is *not* to be judged "for the money" - then by what other measure is a shopper actually to make a decision?

Just "brand name"?

The thing coming to mind is that if "the money" constricts one to make a more suitable choice one needs to save up more cash and come up with more $$.

So, that for "more money" an even better choice hopefully can be made.

"For the money" is where almost every single purchase is taking place I know. Buyers right or wrong, are generally being convinced getting best quality exactly "at" or "within" that range.

With special attention given to active players and pianists...

Isn't that exactly what happened - or "will" always happen - when buying your own piano?

Norbert

Thanks for the info, Joe. So, based on your playing experience, you think that Bechstein's "Hoffmann Tradition" line is probably on a par with the Kawai RX and Yamaha C lines, but you don't know about the "Irmler Europe", "Vogel", "Boston" etc. lines. Fair enough.

You said in your post that you didn't know much about the "Irmler Europe" line., Well, here is a link that will inform you:

http://www.pianobuyer.com/spring13/177.html

Polish cabinet, Indonesian strung back, Czech or German action, German hammers & final assembly - if this "Irmler Europe" isn't a "global piano", I don't know what is. Jeez!