Piano World Home Page Forums Our Most Popular Forums Adult Beginners Forum Is Study with Your Teacher Structured & Progressive?

I wonder about this because my course of study with my teacher -- who is great -- is neither very structured nor formally progressive.

At the outset, let me observe that I'm a 60-year old adult beginner on piano. I have no plans or goals of ever playing professionally, but I would like to learn as much as I can as fast as I can, and I work at the piano diligently. I find that the rewards of each two steps forward vastly outweigh the frustrations of the occasional step back. (It helps a little that I have previously mastered another instrument, though the technical skills aren't in the least transferable.)

When I first started on one-hour weekly lessons about a year and a half ago, we began in the Alfred's Adult method, but we got away from that within a couple of weeks and haven't looked back. Since then we have used no method book at all.

Instead, we have worked on a "course" consisting of a series of solo piano pieces (some suggested by my teacher, most by me) that began with relatively short and easy works and has gradually grown to include longer and more difficult compositions. Thrown in along the way were a few Czerny etudes cherry-picked from Opus 599, scale practice, and not enough theory to do any lasting harm.

My sense -- and my teacher's belief -- is that this gradual progression from easier pieces to harder pieces is taking me in the same direction that a course of study involving a formally structured and progressive method might lead.

I suspect that the pluses primarily involve more direct engagement with "real music" than I'd get if I worked more on, say, Hanon (which my teacher refuses to let me do: she's not a Hanon fan). I suspect that the minuses include bypassing pedagogical milestones that it would be helpful to study formally in some sort of logical order (rather than waiting until I encounter them in compositions).

Which way does your relationship with your teacher work?

Is your course of study structured, progressive, and heavily method-oriented?

Is it more informal and piece-driven?

Or something in between?

Not really. There are a few more structured elements - such as we're gradually working through Czerny studies "in order" (though not each piece in a book.) And technique gradually progresses.

But for pieces, we are usually looking to "fill in holes" (my teacher) / wonderful pieces I've always wanted to play (me). And whatever problems we find, that's where we go. Some other things are again more structured with that. For instance, we're on the second of probably three or four Bach inventions before I tackle any of the suites. And I'll do one or more sonatinas (or simple sonatas that are probably better described as sonatinas) before we tackle any sonatas.

I think this is pretty normal. when you start out many teachers use a method book like Alfred which is probably what you are used to. I started out using Alfred and John Thompson too but once I finished book 2 my teacher told me not to get the next book and instead assigned me real pieces. It takes a while to get used to because I was used to the progressive page by page approach. What might help is a diary, my teacher gets all her students to carry a diary every lesson to write down what they need to work on for next week, that gives them a goal to work towards and make things a bit more structured.

It's a great question and one I have been thinking about since beginning lessons two months ago. I told my teacher I didn't want to do exams which meant I probably put her out of her comfort zone. In lieu of exam pieces she presents me with pieces she thinks I might like. I showed her the Alfred's book 2 which she then bought but we don't work on it in sequence, just cherry pick. She is very supportive of things when I talk about Hanon or Microkosmos, but I do those outside of the lesson structure, I think I am her only "driven" student. I don’t think she might be the best teacher in the world but we get on well and for now she is probably just right.

My opinion is our increasing ability sets the progression pace and as adults (you can tell I am a control freak) it is up to us to set the direction as much as the teacher. After all, the teacher is only a guide helping us find our musical spirit.

Add to this the thought; progression seems to imply a pre-defined forward progress to a known goal. As individuals our goals may still not be clear and most definitely cannot be reached by a “one fits all” pre-determined course. For now I accept the best and speediest method it to build on a good foundation of both theory and practical one day at a time.

Great thoughts, Earl, thanks.

A former string teacher of mine -- the section principal with a major US orchestra -- once told me that no one *teaches* you to play a musical instrument. You teach yourself, with some guidance and tips from others who have already climbed the mountain you're trying to climb.

I think that's exactly right.

Mine is just like yours, not much structure, but that's best for me anyway, because I don't do well with sequental learning. But I did have a method book on my first lesson and it was her idea to ditch it and give me individual studies instead...

My teacher also picks pieces to "fill the holes" while I pick pieces I want to learn to play. MY picks tend to get the preference, and I seldom really complete the ones from her

Every now and then the teacher picks an easy study to work on my physical issues. But too much of those gets me both physically and mentally exhausted, so we don't work on them all the time.

The way I'd put it regarding my studies -- and not just in music -- is that I work really hard on the things that interest me. Not so much on things I don't find interesting.

It shows, of course...

I restarted again at 65 a little over 2 years ago after more than 35 years of not playing at all. I guess my lessons are a combination. We do scales, arpeggios and Czerny in the beginning. I am working on my 3rd Bach Invention at my request. I have also worked on some sonatinas hoping to get to sonatas in the future. My teacher will sometimes suggest a piece but mostly I choose pieces that I like, usually from the romantic period. I have done a couple of Chopin waltzes, a Chopin Polonaise, some Brahms waltzes, a couple of the Mendelssohn Songs without Words and Berceuse by Illinsky. Last summer we went through a college Freshman theory book, again at my request.
Zillybug

Maybe it's a personality trait, I have been like that as long as I can remember, even as a young child...

But at least I have managed to achieve some discipline in my piano learning...or maybe I simply have learned strategies to fool myself into doing things that don't interest me. But only in small doses, otherwise I loose my motivation to practice.

Public school warps our view as to what teaching is about.

In public school, you get many hours of instruction with a formal lesson plan. There's a curriculum that teachers teach in a group environment. The excellent students are bored; the weaker students struggle to keep up. Everyone gets tested.

In private music instruction, assuming you don't have a live-in tutor, you get an hour or so a week with a teacher. This means *you* are in charge of your learning. Your teacher is a guide.

Some teachers will prescribe a regimen; others won't. But ultimately you have to decide whether your teacher is contributing to your personal growth.

I'm an experienced (but far FAR from expert) pianist. This leads to very strange experiences on this forum. "How do I learn to sight read?" "Um. I dunno. You just keep trying?" "How do I deal with performance jitters?" "Well, they're terrible for me and I still struggle, but here's what I try..." The problem is that some of this stuff that my teachers showed me as a kid, I internalized as a kid... without much reflection. So I don't have the perspective to say, "Here's what this is about," because who knows what crept into my brain when I wasn't paying attention. (And who knows, if I'd had different teachers or been a better student, whether I'd be much more accomplished than I am now.)

So with all that above as context, my lessons are not very structured. I've worked with my teacher for the past couple years, on a very narrow musical style. A stochastic process seems to decide what piece I end up working on. I work on it for a week or so and then go perform it. My teacher listens carefully. I generally botch it. My teacher, out of my performance and the printed sheet, identifies interpretive elements that I completely miss and asks me to bring out certain aspects of the play. I try to reproduce what he's asking for during the lessons. He'll show me some stuff some times. I'll work on it for a few weeks until he's communicated the points that he wants to make. He'll occasionally assume I've got more musical background than I do and lay some jargon on me. (My teachers as a kid were usually the church pianist; my teacher, in addition to being a church pianist, is a professional musician, has a degree in pedagogy, and a performance masters from a very respected music school.)

So, in my case, it's not a curriculum. It's having a guide. As an adult, I'm finally taking responsibility for my own learning in a way that I never understood that I should as a child. I dunno if my childhood teachers were dishing something I wasn't ready to consume or if I wasn't well-served by them. But at least I'm progressing now, because I'm finally listening and because I found the right teacher for me.

You may benefit from a book my teacher also just recommended I read as an adult that's very curious on the learning process as well as the teaching process from the teacher's perspective as teaching is a goal of mine down the road. He quoted a favorite line in describing the book that the teacher in it said unto his student (I'm paraphrasing): "I cannot teach you. You may be wondering why, then, you're my music student, I'm your teacher, and we're both here today. The reason I cannot teach you is because it is you who must ultimately teach yourself. What I can do is help to guide you and provide you with advice and my experience, but were I able to teach you, then you and all the rest of my students would all come out one and the same."

The book is The Music Lesson: Spiritual Search For Growth Through Music by what many say is the world's best living bass virtuoso, Victor Wooten. I'll be happy to share more after I've received and read the book myself!

Vic Wooten is certainly the best electric bass player I've ever encountered. He's amazing.

If that's what you mean by "best living bass virtuoso," you'll get no argument from me.

I love this quote. Sounds like good book

I love this topic and reading all the responses. I have been thinking about my 'journey' through piano maybe because of hanging out here.

I started piano years ago but wasn't willing to put anything into it outside of my lessons. I didn't practice much and when I did practice I did it wrong. (Intending to play it correctly in my lesson) I think you all can figure out how much I progressed. It took me years to finish Alfred 1 and we started Alfred 2 in 2010. We are not structured but I can tell I am making progress.

I sound like a spoiled brat but gradually came to the realization that it is a privilege to take lessons with a teacher I like and a privilege to have a piano and the time to learn. I was a little dismayed to find out how much work it is. But like the saying says, if it were easy, everyone would play piano.

As a kid, my piano teacher tried to guide me through a somewhat structured program. I remember we used the John Thompson books. I also remember lots of "half-hearted" practice sessions. Sessions more concerned with climbing the basement stairs to advance the timer on the oven and shorten my practice than anything else!! I honestly believe that I had talent that wasn't directed properly. Same for my sister too. We've both come the conclusion we had lousy instruction. At least it didn't seem to be what each of us needed to motivate and push us forward.

As an adult, I am better at practicing. At least in spending time at the piano. I probably could practice better. I only started last year with the teacher I have now. I played for her some of what I had been playing on my own at first. We polished those pieces and then moved on to more in the same books. We tend to stick with a composer and learn three pieces by that composer in a particular genre before moving on. Recently, I discovered the Hanon exercises through PW and brought them up to my teacher. She was thrilled that I was interested. I don't know how much technical method we will go over in my lessons. Haven't had a lesson since starting this basic technique and theory. Bottom line is that I want to learn the music I hear the great performers playing. I have a long way to go. But that's my goal. I wouldn't say we have a structured program underway. But it's definitely progressive because I am making progress. It's not about trying to minimize my practice time anymore but trying to find more time to practce. It's hard as an adult with more outside responsibilities. It's always a challenge to balance all I want to do with ongoing fatigue.

I have a wonderful teacher. I started piano 5 years ago and I can honestly say I have had very structured lessons. It has got me to where I am today which is doing Grade 4. I am not a natural pianist so I have to work really hard to achieve things but the fact that I am on Grade 4 shows that not only do I have a good teacher, but I am a determined pupil. I started at the age of 44 knowing absolutely nothing about piano or music so by the time I retire, I will hopefully be a pretty good pianist as I will have had 20 years experience of playing. Someone asked me the other day why I never took up the piano years ago when I was in my 20s or even 30s and I could not answer. I honestly have no idea why. I have always liked listening to pianists and trying to tinker about with two fingers making tunes, but it wasn't until 5 years ago that I decided it was now or never so I enrolled in a music school, bought myself a piano and well, the rest is history.

my piano teacher started me out in a structured lesson which lasted about 2 weeks being that I was able to play for her minuet 116 from Anna Magdalena's Notebook that I was working on on my own and decided to play for her when she asked me if I have songs I want to learn how to play. So she bought back my John Thompson's adult beginner book and told me we are just picking songs and learning techniques as we go. So now she picks songs from different classical pianists (and I also pick ones I like) and I honestly find it more enjoyable learning this way.

My piano teacher started me with Alfred's. I say this as if I've been playing for years instead of practicing for only 26 days. However, I specifically asked her about goals about two lessons ago, and she commented that I was doing well so far, but it would be a bit more time for her to assess where I will go based on when the "floodgates open"...she said something similar to that phrase. She also mentioned that after Alfred's, we wouldn't continue with Book 2 or 3, but just move on.

She spends about 60 seconds teaching me a new theory, gives me a few items to learn that's not in the book, and then pages to practice in the book. Sometimes it's a few pages, other times it's 10. Depending on the day I get maybe a few new theories, or elements. Right now I'm practicing "Jingle Bells, but she wants me to have up to "Largo" practiced by the next time we see each other.

I feel both the structure and progressiveness.

I'm almost mid-30s, and I'm very glad I didn't waste another day starting piano. I've wanted to play since I was a kid. I want all the great equipment. I want to play excellent classical music and contemporary greats, and cute melodies from childhood...all that.

I also want to add that I realized I'm not so intent on getting these practices in due to the money I'm paying my teacher, but rather the motivation of not wanting to waste her time when I arrive every week. I want to do exactly what she says, maybe more if I can, so I can get to where I'm supposed to be on time (whenever that may be).

Hope I make sense. I'm still new to all of this. That all said, is "Largo" after one month okay? I know, I know...everyone is different, but once again, I'm very new to all of this.

Jazzymac,

I'm glad you didn't wait a day past thirty either!

Your questions to your teacher are very standard for adults (and your teacher sounds seasoned in fielding them

There's this fantasy that if we just do everything right that it is just a matter of a short time to dazzle folks with pianistic witty brilliance.

But what you've gotten yourself into is an exercise akin to swimming in molasses. Sweet, sweet molasses. Enjoy the ride, enjoy the sounds you're making, and don't stress too much. Your hands will feel really clumsy and your head will hurt and you'll have great days and not so great days. That never changes. So enjoy the ride!

Whizbang is correct but it your up to Largo already your doing quite well. From other threads Alfred's book 1 take some people up to a year or longer to complete (some less so of course).
Now I am still much of a beginner, so anything I write is useless but I often equate piano to sport, you have to put in a solid foundation (theory and technique) in the early days before you can see results when you take it to the next level.

I think a good teacher will push quite hard and I don't think that is a bad thing, (back to sport) ultimately the greatest reward is seeing how far you can push yourself. We humans are capable of the most extraordinary things if we just put our minds to it.

PS Love to hear more of your journey so keep posting.