Piano World Home Page Forums Our Most Popular Forums Pianist Corner What's so bad about Islamey?

Here is another Russian piece based on folk dance tunes with a lot of banging and repetition, by a later generation of Russian composer.



Do those of you who dislike Islamey dislike this, also? It might be an interesting comparison.

That's an arrangement of parts a much larger scale work, though. I do like that piece a lot (although, I can't say I'm the biggest fan of that performance).

I do too, though IMO no substitute for the original or Stravinsky's later revision.

For the piano arrangement, Pollini set the bar enviably high.

I agree, Pollini is my favorite.

Does that mean it is a lousy piece that you only care for in one specific performance?

Don't know if that was addressed to OSK or me (or both), but I can quite assure you that I do NOT think it a lousy piece, and I have no idea why you might have questioned that.

I certainly have not heard all the recordings of Stravinsky's transcription, I am just saying that I thought Pollini's incredibly outstanding. I have heard a few less satisfactory, which cause me to appreciate Pollini all the more.

What is it with you, BDB, I do not question your musical knowledge -which I admire- just perhaps the cranky, combative and often condescending tone of some of your posts.

Well, I think that Stravinsky did a lot more than just to juxtapose Russian folk music tunes together... So, yes, I dislike Islamey much more than Petrushka.

I should note, however, that from the three major ballets of the same era by Stravinsky, I'm most fond of the Rite of Spring.

EDIT: A small question by me then.

This video, from Piano Stories, has no.3 "How to live in an underground home" at around 04:30

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UvrqRpZ63w4

To me it sounds rather Russian (or Jewish?!?!?!), or at least with ethnic flavours (and it was composed prior to 2000). Does anybody else hear that?

I asked about the comparison between two pieces with similarities of the factors that some people say make them dislike one of them. Whether there is a good performance of one of them clouds the issue. I just want to clear the discussion of that static. After all, it could mean that there could be a performance of Islamey that would make people think it is a great piece.

If you think that makes me cranky, combative, or condescending, you are welcome to your own opinion of me. But I think you are just getting upset over my phrasing, just as the person who did not know what "orient" means.

Well that was not made clear:

Nor was this:

I took it as a reference to the Stravinsky. I have made no comments in this thread about the Balakirev, though I rather enjoy it FWIW. It was not until the Stravinsky issue came up that I elected to contribute to this thread.

BTW, I am not 'upset' over your phrasing -I think you give yourself too much credit- but I have seen you here a long time, and if I am used to the tone of your posts, I do not always think them appropriate. You would NEVER have got me on the 'oriental' thing, but I let that issue go, amusing as it was, I did not choose to get involved.

Methinks it is time to move on, a few drinks will be just the tonic, and maybe the folks on the Rachmaninov 3 thread are still debating the profundity of a piece which, apparently, is on the level of a Brahms Bb, Beethoven G major or the Mozart K491.

Oops, I missed that.

And the Rite is full of bits and pieces of folk tunes. I forgot where I saw it, but somebody went to the trouble of identifying a lot of them - they are not original inventions by Stravinsky, but borrowings. Maybe, since this is the 100th anniversary year of the piece, that analysis will get some attention.

But there's not much point in comparing the kind of piece that Islamey is with very different sorts of pieces. I think Islamey belongs to a certain genre of arrangements and fantasies on pre-existing tunes. There is the huge output of stuff based on opera in the 19th century that falls into that category, of course, but there is also a lot of other material, like Mendelssohn's Fantasy on "The Last Rose of Summer", or the way Liszt appropriates some tunes for his "Venezia e Napoli".

Listen - what IS your problem? 'That person' has a name, and 'that person' knows FULL WELL what 'orient' means and you know it.

It was YOU who chose to address me in a thoroughly demeaning demeanor as if YOU know everything and I guess no newcomer here could possibly match your smarts. That's a real nice welcome mat you lay out for new members here - unfriendly and patronizing.

It amazes me that in a place that could be a celebration of a shared passion, there is snarkiness instead. Or do you think your massive entitlement is just your justifiably 'artistic temperament'? Whatever, it stinks.

Of course I know that the Rite is filled with such tunes. But as far as taste is concerned I largely prefer it than Petrushka or The Firebird... :-/

I'm not sure there's any reason to keep discussing this. Maybe my comments were a bit 'harsh' and one sided. Lets try this: "Generally speaking, music with ethnic elements do not appeal to me".

But there is a question that nobody has replied and needs asking I think:

[b]"What's so amazing about Islamey?" Meaning. Does anyone think that this is a huge masterpiece (like moonlight sonata, for example), or something just as "good" (whatever "good" means).

I think replying to that might solve all the issues with Islamey!

There are nearly 70,000 "names" on this board, using the term advisedly because I do not use my name on it. I have not memorized all of them. You may think of that as a failing of mine. You are welcome to do so.

.

One should be aware that Stravinsky studied with members of Balakirev's circle, so he is the next generation of Russian composer. I think structurally, the 3 Movements are more advanced than Islamey. A brilliant mind like Stravinsky's builds upon the experience of the previous generation. I would be interested to know whether you agree with that assessment.

It might have been better to compare Islamey with the last of the 3 Movements, or maybe the entire piece, but I did not want to spend a lot of time on it.

It also might be interesting to compare it with another piece of traditional tunes arrangements that a lot of people do not like, the Saudades do Brasil.

I don't know for sure, but Henle publishers, who prides itself on publishing Urtext editions (editions true to the composer), sells it as "Islamey - Fantaisie Orientale". So I'm guessing the title is the original title by Balakirev.

The preface of the Henle edition mentions that it was originally published by Jurgenson. Maybe you'll have to find a facsimile to know for sure.

Goomer: I realize it's dangerous to wade into something between other people, but I just wanted to say, BDB isn't like that. (There were times that he and I had our moments too but, he's not like that.) I don't feel like going back to what started it between you and him, but I did read it when it happened, and it didn't seem like anything like how it seemed to you. Whether or not you took something the wrong way, I think you can rest assured that he's not like that and that just going on from here as though nothing happened will be more than fine.

In anonymous settings like this, words speak louder than actions. I know what I read, and I am as qualified as anybody to understand a put-down. So thanks, but I don't need any interpreter here. Compare the way BDB addressed me with the way others handled the historical context of the word 'oriental', and there is an ENORMOUS difference, namely the difference between respect and utter disrespect.

FWIW, it seems like 'argerichfan' knew the deal too but, as you say, choose not to 'wade in'.


So Mark, while your intention may be good here, you weren't the person who was deliberately belittled and the way you 'read it' is irrelevant to me. And also FWIW, I would not have brought this up again if it weren't for BDB saying again 'the person who did not know what "orient" means.' Anybody who read the earlier exchange would know very well that there's NO evidence I didn't know what 'orient' means, and there was NO point in BDB reiterating that nonsense except to denigrate and insult.

I like Islamey
Much more than many Beethoven sonatas