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I took another look at the piece, hoping to provide a little more insight.

The confusion about the form is that you are treating the theme in the middle section as a "development", in that you are altering and modulating it frequently.

Check out this piece by Frederic Rzewski called "The People United Will Never Be Defeated". It is a stunning theme and variations and is stunningly performed by Marc-Andre Hamelin. It is about an hour long and I suggest listening to all of it. This piece uses much of the virtuosity that you have in your piece and I expect you could learn much from studying it if you haven't already.

There is a recording online that is split up between several youtube videos. I've posted the first link below.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KsfJIJ7ZQ2c

Side note: I don't think you need to study with a composer who is a pianist. If they are an experienced composer they should know how to write for the piano.

Last edited by Charles Peck; 04/23/13 02:29 AM.
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Hi Mark,

The first thing to keep in mind is that everyone, whether professor or composition teacher or internet forum stranger, has an agenda. In other words we all have our point of view and our personal tastes. Your mission as composer is not to please us, but to please your own ear. However, an experienced composer can assist in making your music more effective. Everyone on this thread has contributed positively in their own way. It seems you've impressed us, that's a good thing.

I listened to your piece once and enjoyed what I heard. My impression is that this would require a very good pianist to perform it. As a composer of piano music who has some challenges when it comes to technique and has tried (with modest success) to interest pianists in playing his music I can tell you the harder the music, the fewer will play it. So there's a balancing act between making the music interesting and making it playable.

Regarding the music itself, while it was an enjoyable listening experience I didn't find the themes especially memorable so I wasn't identifying their returns and variations. Your harmonic ideas are very interesting, but I would seek ways to to make the initial theme more memorable. The suggestion to change up the rhythm is especially salient. It's very square at the beginning. Find a way to build up more tension within the theme by perhaps holding some notes longer. For example in bar 2, if the G# (really Ab) was a dotted quarter and the Bb, C, and D were sixteenths it becomes much more memorable. Just a bit of that goes a long way to breaking up the quarter/eighth note clompy rhythm which quickly becomes tedious. That may not fit with your conception of the piece in which case find some other way to change things up. Ironically, changing the rhythms makes the theme sound more fluid. Bringing those changes through the rest of the piece will make the themes more identifiable as the piece progresses. Hope that helps.

Hope that's helpful.


Steve Chandler
composer/amateur pianist

stevechandler-music.com
http://www.soundcloud.com/pantonality
http://www.youtube.com/pantonality
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Thanks for the suggestion. I will try a few things to see if I can make it work. Or do you think, it would be a good idea, to just file this away and start something else. Maybe just chalk this up as a learning experience and just try again.
Originally Posted by Steve Chandler
Hi Mark,

The first thing to keep in mind is that everyone, whether professor or composition teacher or internet forum stranger, has an agenda. In other words we all have our point of view and our personal tastes. Your mission as composer is not to please us, but to please your own ear. However, an experienced composer can assist in making your music more effective. Everyone on this thread has contributed positively in their own way. It seems you've impressed us, that's a good thing.

I listened to your piece once and enjoyed what I heard. My impression is that this would require a very good pianist to perform it. As a composer of piano music who has some challenges when it comes to technique and has tried (with modest success) to interest pianists in playing his music I can tell you the harder the music, the fewer will play it. So there's a balancing act between making the music interesting and making it playable.

Regarding the music itself, while it was an enjoyable listening experience I didn't find the themes especially memorable so I wasn't identifying their returns and variations. Your harmonic ideas are very interesting, but I would seek ways to to make the initial theme more memorable. The suggestion to change up the rhythm is especially salient. It's very square at the beginning. Find a way to build up more tension within the theme by perhaps holding some notes longer. For example in bar 2, if the G# (really Ab) was a dotted quarter and the Bb, C, and D were sixteenths it becomes much more memorable. Just a bit of that goes a long way to breaking up the quarter/eighth note clompy rhythm which quickly becomes tedious. That may not fit with your conception of the piece in which case find some other way to change things up. Ironically, changing the rhythms makes the theme sound more fluid. Bringing those changes through the rest of the piece will make the themes more identifiable as the piece progresses. Hope that helps.

Hope that's helpful.

Last edited by Mark Gordon; 04/23/13 12:04 PM.
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Thanks Charles, I'll check it out.
Originally Posted by Charles Peck
I took another look at the piece, hoping to provide a little more insight.

The confusion about the form is that you are treating the theme in the middle section as a "development", in that you are altering and modulating it frequently.

Check out this piece by Frederic Rzewski called "The People United Will Never Be Defeated". It is a stunning theme and variations and is stunningly performed by Marc-Andre Hamelin. It is about an hour long and I suggest listening to all of it. This piece uses much of the virtuosity that you have in your piece and I expect you could learn much from studying it if you haven't already.

There is a recording online that is split up between several youtube videos. I've posted the first link below.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KsfJIJ7ZQ2c

Side note: I don't think you need to study with a composer who is a pianist. If they are an experienced composer they should know how to write for the piano.

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Steve, i am going to make a quick recording of the main theme with me playing it. I had the computer playing it on the other recording. If you have time, let me know if it makes a difference. I just can't find a way to fix it without starting the piece from scratch. It seemed to make sense to me when I play it, but I know that the computer makes it very robotic and monotonous sounding. thanks again.

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Steve, here is a live play of the first section. I don't think it makes that much difference but I thought I might as well post a live play of at least the first section. I think I am going to abandon this piece and just try for something that is more on my level. I think I just got a little too ambitious when I had no business doing so. I don't have the musical knowledge or the training to attempt anything this large so I probably should just try some simple compositional exercises for a while. I will be looking for some things on the web to perhaps give me a little more foundation. Thanks again for your help.


https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/93161902/Piano%20sonata.mp3

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Just want to help improve this piece.

I believe repetition creates unity and strength in music. Even within a few measures, repeated notes create strength and unity.

With notes so far spread out in the beginning of this piece, a place where most clarity and strength needs to be, it is hard to tell where the interest is.

Simply by repeating a couple of grounding notes in the beginning would bring interest to this piece.




Charles Peck (American)--Metropolitan
Debussy--various pieces
Grieg--various pieces
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I don't think I would be so quick to abandon it. I think you could actually learn a good bit by going through and making adjustments to this piece. Even if you don't end up using it, there are some valuable lessons in there.

Work on the notation, experiment with ways of highlighting the theme more and bring the technical aspects to a more playable level. I'm sure going through these things will serve you in future pieces. Good luck.

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I think that I may see the biggest problem with this piece and that it was a mistake to shoehorn the label sonata onto it when I did not create it with a sonata form in mind. My goal was to take a 4 bar simple rhythm and try to practice retrogrades, playing with the motif and changing modes. I originally titled it Etude and I should have kept it that way. I don't know when I got the wild idea that I should put two more movements to it and call it a sonata. I guess I was sort of putting lipstick on a pig so to speak. So, lessons learned, next time I start designing something that looks like a buick, I probably would be better off not calling it a mercedes.

I finally had the "aha" moment when questions were raised about the strength of the main theme and I remembered that I had in no way planned for a sonata form and if I did, I would have certainly planned differently. So in conclusion, thanks for waking me up to that. If it is okay, I am going to start something else and upload as it is in development. I've been very happy with the number of responses and the time everyone has taken. So, I will just return this to its original title and move on to the next one.

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Sorry Charles, didn't see your post before I put mine up. I need a little bit of space from the piece but hopefully I can resurrect it sometime in the future. I am not quite sure, due to my inexperience, how I would change the main theme without breaking the rest of the piece. Everything is sort of based the one motif, and this is actually the most regular rhythmic melody or plain melody that I've written to date. I'll have to think about it for a while or come back to it once I feel that my foundations are stronger. I'm just not sure if it is worth saving. This probably comes from my experience as a visual artist where if you make a bad painting, just put it in the closet and try again. Then later on you can look back at it and say "gee, what was I thinking?" It may be a little different with music though.

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Mark,

I'm glad to see you were able to puzzle through things on your own. I have mixed feelings about whether to hone this one or move on. Both ideas have merit (how's that for not making up your mind for you after you've already made it up?). I believe there's merit in exploring these issues. I agree with much of what Charles says, but I also know that I've gone back to pieces after a few weeks (or years) and the interim allowed a degree of perspective that was valuable. I hope you do go back to this piece at some point, there are a lot of good ideas there.

OTOH, something new will present a new set of problems and perhaps it's time to seek a new challenge.

BTW, I listened to your recording and of course the human aspect made a significant difference, there were a few rhythmic things you did that helped it that perhaps were not as evident in the Sibelius rendition. Overall, I still think it could use a bit more and one or two dotted rhythms could add a degree of propulsion that would help.

The most important skill a composer can develop is a critical ear. It's very easy to fall in love with an idea. If your first thought is that it's perfect let that be a red flag, no idea is perfect. In my composing every moment of a piece of music is honed. That's what makes the process so arduous. That's probably not the way every composer works, but I've heard far too many pieces where a young composer put a lot of effort into not so great themes. Your piece had some great ideas, but they could be made better. Whether you explore that in a new work or in revising this one is up to you, either way will be a learning experience. That's what you need most is simply experience. It's like the old joke, How do you get to Carnegie Hall? Practice man, practice!


Steve Chandler
composer/amateur pianist

stevechandler-music.com
http://www.soundcloud.com/pantonality
http://www.youtube.com/pantonality
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I started looking at it a little more tonight. I think the first thing that I need to do is at least make what is there readable and playable. I really want to keep the sweeps in there but right now there are too many sections that would make it impossible to really play smoothly because the fingering would be too awkward. I'll upload it after in a week or so as I fix it. of course this is the really boring part of composition... proof reading.

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Changing up rhythm is something I'm also conflicted on and will probably need some time away so I can hear it in a different light. At first I was somewhat attached to the kind of droning vanilla quality of the theme and thought about (as I was composing it) to keep it kind of static feeling so that the middle section could really stand out as a huge contrast. This is the plainest melody I have written so far, so I thought it would be a good challenge to so if I could polish the turd as they say. It really is kind of boring and soulless, but I kind of thought it might be interesting to turn it into something more by the varying rhythms and textures. So in essence I completely agree with you, but I'm wondering if I make they melody more rhythmic if it might change the strategy for it later in the piece. This is a genuine question, not a rhetorical one. I just don't know.

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Well, Steve. I finally hear it in my head this evening. I didn't think it was possible to vary the rhythms much on the main theme without breaking the whole piece. but I think I found a couple of solutions. I'll post a couple of very quick variations (same notes, slightly altered rhythms) in the next day or so. I guess sometimes I have to tell my self it can't be done and then later I think, actually it can.


thanks

Originally Posted by Steve Chandler
Mark,

I'm glad to see you were able to puzzle through things on your own. I have mixed feelings about whether to hone this one or move on. Both ideas have merit (how's that for not making up your mind for you after you've already made it up?). I believe there's merit in exploring these issues. I agree with much of what Charles says, but I also know that I've gone back to pieces after a few weeks (or years) and the interim allowed a degree of perspective that was valuable. I hope you do go back to this piece at some point, there are a lot of good ideas there.

OTOH, something new will present a new set of problems and perhaps it's time to seek a new challenge.

BTW, I listened to your recording and of course the human aspect made a significant difference, there were a few rhythmic things you did that helped it that perhaps were not as evident in the Sibelius rendition. Overall, I still think it could use a bit more and one or two dotted rhythms could add a degree of propulsion that would help.

The most important skill a composer can develop is a critical ear. It's very easy to fall in love with an idea. If your first thought is that it's perfect let that be a red flag, no idea is perfect. In my composing every moment of a piece of music is honed. That's what makes the process so arduous. That's probably not the way every composer works, but I've heard far too many pieces where a young composer put a lot of effort into not so great themes. Your piece had some great ideas, but they could be made better. Whether you explore that in a new work or in revising this one is up to you, either way will be a learning experience. That's what you need most is simply experience. It's like the old joke, How do you get to Carnegie Hall? Practice man, practice!

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