Welcome to the Piano World Piano Forums
Over 2.5 million posts about pianos, digital pianos, and all types of keyboard instruments
Join the World's Largest Community of Piano Lovers (it's free)
It's Fun to Play the Piano ... Please Pass It On!


SEARCH
Piano Forums & Piano World
(ad)
Modern Piano Moving
Modern Piano Moving
(ad)
Virtual Sheet Music
Download Sheet Music Instantly
Virtual Sheet Music - Classical Sheet Music Downloads
Sheet Music...
(125ad)
Piano Life Saver - Dampp Chaser
Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver
(ad)
Piano Buyer Guide
Piano Buyer Spring 2017
(ad)
Lindeblad Piano
Lindeblad Piano Restorations and sales
Who's Online Now
59 registered members (CharlesXX, Chillipepper, Beakybird, Chris Leslie, casinitaly, 16 invisible), 1,542 guests, and 9 spiders.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
(ad)
Estonia Pianos
Estonia Pianos
Quick Links to Useful Piano & Music Resources
Our Classified Ads
Find Piano Professionals-

*Piano Dealers - Piano Stores
*Piano Tuners
*Piano Teachers
*Piano Movers
*Piano Restorations
*Piano Manufacturers

Quick Links:
*Advertise On Piano World
*Free Piano Newsletter
*Online Piano Recitals
*Piano Recitals Index
*Piano & Music Accessories
*Live Piano Venues
*Music School Listings
* Buying a Piano
*Buying A Acoustic Piano
*Buying a Digital Piano
*Pianos for Sale
*Sell Your Piano
*How Old is My Piano?
*Directory/Site Map
*Virtual Piano
*Music Word Search
*Piano Videos
*Virtual Piano Chords & Scales
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
#2067238 - 04/19/13 05:03 PM "Fundamentals of Piano Practice", Chuan Chang  
Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 68
88slowpoke Offline
Full Member
88slowpoke  Offline
Full Member

Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 68
RI
Just discovered this book, first reading it on line and today received my copy from Amazon. This is the answer I have been looking for on how (not WHAT) to practice! I'm psyched! I'm already learning from it. I am practicing without a teacher and, from the few lessons last fall (resulting in tendinitis) to my more recently getting some alarming advice from a prospective teacher, I'm much better off going it alone with Dr. Chang's methodology. I'm on my way!

(ad)
Piano & Music Accessories
piano accessories music gifts tuning and moving equipment
#2067245 - 04/19/13 05:09 PM Re: "Fundamentals of Piano Practice", Chuan Chang [Re: 88slowpoke]  
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 4,464
Mark... Offline
4000 Post Club Member
Mark...  Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 4,464
Jersey Shore
Obviously you didn't read my Amazon review... smile

#2067253 - 04/19/13 05:21 PM Re: "Fundamentals of Piano Practice", Chuan Chang [Re: 88slowpoke]  
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 3,082
earlofmar Online content
3000 Post Club Member
earlofmar  Online Content
3000 Post Club Member

Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 3,082
Australia
Mark - how about posting your review here it might be a worthy topic for beginners.
88 Slowpoke - I have been reading so many negatives on the book I would be interested to learn in the future if it gives the benefits the proponents claim


Problems with piano are 90% psychological, the other 10% is in your head.

13x[Linked Image]
[Linked Image]
#2067257 - 04/19/13 05:29 PM Re: "Fundamentals of Piano Practice", Chuan Chang [Re: 88slowpoke]  
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 6,370
jotur Offline
6000 Post Club Member
jotur  Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 6,370
Santa Fe, NM
It was my first discovery of "how to" practice, too. The prose is, perhaps, overwrought laugh , but I found much that was useful by dipping into it for specific issues, like large jumps. So many other books on "practicing" focused on things like keeping a journal instead of movements at the piano, or "ghosting" the end of your jumps, or slow moves, or whatever.

But I did ignore a lot of the hype. Others seem to have found similar good advice in more clear-cut forms nowadays, so that helps.

But, yeah, I thought he had some good ideas. You can always check out specifics of them with the ABF and see what other's experiences are.

Have fun.

Cathy


Cathy
[Linked Image][Linked Image][Linked Image]
Practice what you suck at - anonymous
(ad ) MusicNotes.com
sheet music search
#2067288 - 04/19/13 06:17 PM Re: "Fundamentals of Piano Practice", Chuan Chang [Re: 88slowpoke]  
Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 396
UK Paul UK Offline
Full Member
UK Paul UK  Offline
Full Member

Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 396
Berkshire, England
The thing is.... its great and all..
But in my opinion..

Forget seeing it as a bible.

I read online, then bougjt the book.

I have books writtendecades earlier which in my view saod the most important and relevant informarion.



Nothing is new from chang. Unless yoy havent read neahaus, ir practicing puano for pleasure.. or a few others...guisking... lemar


And to be fair its the inrerpretation that is important..

Dorry, too much vino.

#2067292 - 04/19/13 06:22 PM Re: "Fundamentals of Piano Practice", Chuan Chang [Re: UK Paul UK]  
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 4,246
malkin Offline
4000 Post Club Member
malkin  Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 4,246
*sigh* Salt Lake City
Originally Posted by UK Paul UK

Dorry, too much vino.


Too funny!



Having power is not nearly as important as what you choose to do with it.
– Roald Dahl

#2067293 - 04/19/13 06:22 PM Re: "Fundamentals of Piano Practice", Chuan Chang [Re: 88slowpoke]  
Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 396
UK Paul UK Offline
Full Member
UK Paul UK  Offline
Full Member

Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 396
Berkshire, England
Goodness, let myself down with that post... however it proves tge point that interpretation is the key...

Parallel sets are a major hazard in my view. Youll teach yourself the wrong way unless its approached with patience and accuracy....

And now its bedtime. Night all x


#2067309 - 04/19/13 07:50 PM Re: "Fundamentals of Piano Practice", Chuan Chang [Re: 88slowpoke]  
Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 2,496
Andy Platt Offline
2000 Post Club Member
Andy Platt  Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 2,496
Virginia, USA
I remember reading it online when I first started to get serious about improving my piano playing. The thing that struck me was that he was making everything out to be a big secret that teacher's didn't reveal ... only to find out that any teacher in the last 30 years was teaching it.


  • Debussy - Le Petit Nègre, L. 114
  • Haydn - Sonata in Gm, Hob. XVI/44

Kawai K3
[Linked Image][Linked Image][Linked Image]
#2067315 - 04/19/13 08:22 PM Re: "Fundamentals of Piano Practice", Chuan Chang [Re: 88slowpoke]  
Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 935
Michael_99 Offline
500 Post Club Member
Michael_99  Offline
500 Post Club Member

Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 935
Canada Alberta
88slowpoke, I have read your post, here:

Just discovered this book, first reading it on line and today received my copy from Amazon. This is the answer I have been looking for on how (not WHAT) to practice! I'm psyched! I'm already learning from it. I am practicing without a teacher and, from the few lessons last fall (resulting in tendinitis) to my more recently getting some alarming advice from a prospective teacher, I'm much better off going it alone with Dr. Chang's methodology. I'm on my way!

________________________________________________

It is exciting to read your post.

I had an excellent sax teacher. Now I can't afford a teacher, but everything my teacher taught me I am doing.

1 open piano book 1 of learning the piano.
2 play the first piece, a 4 measure piece.
3 read, say, and play each note.
4 always look at your music not at your hands.
5 move your eyes first, then you hands. Find
the notes visually then manually.
Keep the hands quiet until the note
has been found visually.
6 repeat the piece at least 5 times perfectly.
7 repeat the piece several times during the day.
8 repeat the piece everyday without mistakes.
9 learn a new piece and repeat the 5 steps.
10 Gain smoothness and ease by reviewing your
old pieces and studies. Be sure to always
review all your pieces regularly.

I have been doing this for a year and it seems okay, so what is it that Mr. Chang says that is so awesome and different.

And if you weren't doing those 10 steps, what were you doing that is different. All the piano books in the music store all say the same thing - those 10 steps. Sorry, I am confused, but I don't know what people do to learn the piano that is different. Please explain to me as a beginner so I can understand what your post means. Thanks.

cheers,



#2067356 - 04/19/13 10:07 PM Re: "Fundamentals of Piano Practice", Chuan Chang [Re: jotur]  
Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 1,475
Stubbie Offline
1000 Post Club Member
Stubbie  Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 1,475
Midwest USA
Originally Posted by jotur
It was my first discovery of "how to" practice, too. The prose is, perhaps, overwrought laugh , but I found much that was useful by dipping into it for specific issues, like large jumps. So many other books on "practicing" focused on things like keeping a journal instead of movements at the piano, or "ghosting" the end of your jumps, or slow moves, or whatever.

But I did ignore a lot of the hype. Others seem to have found similar good advice in more clear-cut forms nowadays, so that helps.

But, yeah, I thought he had some good ideas. You can always check out specifics of them with the ABF and see what other's experiences are.

Have fun.

Cathy


+1
Read widely. No one source has all the answers.


[Linked Image]
#2067510 - 04/20/13 08:46 AM Re: "Fundamentals of Piano Practice", Chuan Chang [Re: 88slowpoke]  
Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 68
88slowpoke Offline
Full Member
88slowpoke  Offline
Full Member

Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 68
RI
Thanks to all who chimed in. Yes, I know that multiple sources (including this forum) are the best way to learn. And, I acknowledge that Dr. Chang's writing style can be, at times, somewhat didactic and maybe a little prolix. That said, his book seems like it will work best for my efforts. Perhaps some other authors put forth similar principles, in the same or different terms, and I do not disparage their material. But this is the one that speaks to me in a way I can understand. Along with Thomas Mark's book on piano-related anatomy, I believe Chang has pointed me in the right direction.

In the short history of my attempts at piano study, I have encountered several dead ends, both from teachers and self-teaching literature. I initially developed tendinitis due to a teacher who did not address arm/hand posture except in passing. Another teacher with whom I interviewed offered an amusing solution for dealing with my long legs that don't fit under the keyboard (I'm 6' 6" tall)- she said to place my knees against the front of the keyboard and play with my arms stretched out straight (like the monster in a grade B movie). My own piano, a grand, is raised 2", as is the bench, to permit the conventional playing posture. One of the self-teaching books prescribed the "curled-fingers" hand posture to make all fingers the same length. It's easy for those who are more experienced than I to belittle these teachings, but as a newbie it's more difficult to know what's correct.

Every method has its proponents and detractors. As for me, I feel I am now on the right track.

#2067528 - 04/20/13 09:15 AM Re: "Fundamentals of Piano Practice", Chuan Chang [Re: Michael_99]  
Joined: Apr 2013
Posts: 208
Goomer Piles Offline
Full Member
Goomer Piles  Offline
Full Member

Joined: Apr 2013
Posts: 208
Originally Posted by Michael_99
Sorry, I am confused, but I don't know what people do to learn the piano that is different. Please explain to me as a beginner so I can understand what your post means. Thanks.

cheers,

Chang's book isn't a method for learning piano but rather a guide to practicing. It's most likely to be useful to students already beyond the beginner stage, if it's useful at all. (It's poorly written, and there's also some irrelevant nonsense that can be disregarded.)

All I got out of the book (and I am already proficient) was the idea that technical difficulties can be tackled by practicing small chunks hands-separately at fast speed. And that's true, but it's also the basic idea of Kenny Werner's 'Effortless Mastery' (another load of nonsense, IMHO, except for one important principle he waits until the end of the book to share).

And that principle is that there are three parts to to musical 'mastery': speed, accuracy, and passage length. After you you master a piece, you can play it at speed, and with accuracy, and in its full length. But Until then, while you're still working it up, you can have ONLY TWO of those elements. So assuming you always want to be accurate, then, you can choose to practice little snippets at speed - or you can do slow practice of longer passages. (And if you practice a long passage at high speed, your accuracy is gone - but that's pretty obvious.)

The difference between Chang and Werner is that Chang specifically calls for hands-separate. That MAY be useful, but even if it is, you can't magically put the two hands together afterwards because hands-together imprints in the brain differently than hands-separate does. Therefore, it might be more efficient just to practice hands-together from the start.

I think that as most people move forward through piano study, they find that different pieces, and even different parts of the same piece, lend themselves to different ways of practicing. With a decent teacher, or with the personal experience of trial-and-error, you'll get a feel for what will probably work best for a given challenge.

#2067545 - 04/20/13 09:46 AM Re: "Fundamentals of Piano Practice", Chuan Chang [Re: 88slowpoke]  
Joined: Feb 2012
Posts: 3,507
zrtf90 Offline
3000 Post Club Member
zrtf90  Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Joined: Feb 2012
Posts: 3,507
Ireland (ex England)
Originally Posted by Goomer Piles
The difference between Chang and Werner is that Chang specifically calls for hands-separate. That MAY be useful, but even if it is, you can't magically put the two hands together afterwards because hands-together imprints in the brain differently than hands-separate does. Therefore, it might be more efficient just to practice hands-together from the start.
Excellent post altogether but you make a very good point here that I'd like to amplify.

Playing HS does have a separate brain imprint than HT and this is regularly a source of confusion for beginners. Learning HS does not make HT any easier. HT still needs all that co-ordination and hand independence BUT HS does solve the problems of mechanical difficulty (changing fingers on one key, awkward stretches, fast passages with the weak 4th and 5th fingers, etc) before co-ordination is tackled and also memorising, beyond finger memory, for mental play does, at least for me, require memorising both hands independently.

For those who don't deliberately memorise, HS practice may not be necessary but for those who consciously memorise first, HS is a recommended addition to the daily repetitions.



Richard
#2067605 - 04/20/13 12:52 PM Re: "Fundamentals of Piano Practice", Chuan Chang [Re: Goomer Piles]  
Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 935
Michael_99 Offline
500 Post Club Member
Michael_99  Offline
500 Post Club Member

Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 935
Canada Alberta
Goomer Piles, I have read your post, here:

Sorry, I am confused, but I don't know what people do to learn the piano that is different. Please explain to me as a beginner so I can understand what your post means. Thanks.

cheers,

Chang's book isn't a method for learning piano but rather a guide to practicing. It's most likely to be useful to students already beyond the beginner stage, if it's useful at all. (It's poorly written, and there's also some irrelevant nonsense that can be disregarded.)

All I got out of the book (and I am already proficient) was the idea that technical difficulties can be tackled by practicing small chunks hands-separately at fast speed. And that's true, but it's also the basic idea of Kenny Werner's 'Effortless Mastery' (another load of nonsense, IMHO, except for one important principle he waits until the end of the book to share).

And that principle is that there are three parts to to musical 'mastery': speed, accuracy, and passage length. After you you master a piece, you can play it at speed, and with accuracy, and in its full length. But Until then, while you're still working it up, you can have ONLY TWO of those elements. So assuming you always want to be accurate, then, you can choose to practice little snippets at speed - or you can do slow practice of longer passages. (And if you practice a long passage at high speed, your accuracy is gone - but that's pretty obvious.)

The difference between Chang and Werner is that Chang specifically calls for hands-separate. That MAY be useful, but even if it is, you can't magically put the two hands together afterwards because hands-together imprints in the brain differently than hands-separate does. Therefore, it might be more efficient just to practice hands-together from the start.

I think that as most people move forward through piano study, they find that different pieces, and even different parts of the same piece, lend themselves to different ways of practicing. With a decent teacher, or with the personal experience of trial-and-error, you'll get a feel for what will probably work best for a given challenge.

_____________________________________________

Thank you very much for taking the time to explain what it is that piano players like about the Chang book and how it related to piano players beyond the beginner level. You are so correct, that beginners like myself have no worries about speed because beginners must ensure that they play slowly and accurately without exception and the speed will come with time by playing day after day, month after month and year after year for at least 2 to 3 years - and more - without errors at any speed.

Some people think that speed is about fast fingers, but it is about playing slowly and accurately and the brain over 2 or 3 years learns to handle the speed slowly - at gradual speed increases - as the piano player increases the difficulty of piano material because as the difficulty of material is increased the speed goes down, so it is a balancing act and that is why it takes 10 or 20 years to be able to play like lang lang -and rest of them whose names I can't spell easily - can play pieces like Chopins Op 52 ballade 4 that requires one to be able to play fast, accurately, and have the technical ability to play the piece.





Last edited by Michael_99; 04/20/13 12:54 PM.
#2067811 - 04/20/13 10:38 PM Re: "Fundamentals of Piano Practice", Chuan Chang [Re: zrtf90]  
Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 1,475
Stubbie Offline
1000 Post Club Member
Stubbie  Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 1,475
Midwest USA
Originally Posted by zrtf90
Originally Posted by Goomer Piles
The difference between Chang and Werner is that Chang specifically calls for hands-separate. That MAY be useful, but even if it is, you can't magically put the two hands together afterwards because hands-together imprints in the brain differently than hands-separate does. Therefore, it might be more efficient just to practice hands-together from the start.
Excellent post altogether but you make a very good point here that I'd like to amplify.

Playing HS does have a separate brain imprint than HT and this is regularly a source of confusion for beginners. Learning HS does not make HT any easier. HT still needs all that co-ordination and hand independence BUT HS does solve the problems of mechanical difficulty (changing fingers on one key, awkward stretches, fast passages with the weak 4th and 5th fingers, etc) before co-ordination is tackled and also memorising, beyond finger memory, for mental play does, at least for me, require memorising both hands independently.

For those who don't deliberately memorise, HS practice may not be necessary but for those who consciously memorise first, HS is a recommended addition to the daily repetitions.



Making sure fingering works at the tempo the piece calls for is one benefit of initial HS practice. Since most people are able to play faster, initially, hands separate, it makes sense to make sure fingering works at something close to tempo. Then return to slow practice, knowing your fingering is secure at at tempo speed.


[Linked Image]
#2068447 - 04/22/13 03:24 AM Re: "Fundamentals of Piano Practice", Chuan Chang [Re: Goomer Piles]  
Joined: May 2012
Posts: 1,393
Bobpickle Offline

Gold Supporter until July 10  2014
Bobpickle  Offline

Gold Supporter until July 10  2014


Joined: May 2012
Posts: 1,393
Cameron Park, California
Originally Posted by Goomer Piles
And that principle is that there are three parts to to musical 'mastery': speed, accuracy, and passage length. After you you master a piece, you can play it at speed, and with accuracy, and in its full length. But Until then, while you're still working it up, you can have ONLY TWO of those elements. So assuming you always want to be accurate, then, you can choose to practice little snippets at speed - or you can do slow practice of longer passages. (And if you practice a long passage at high speed, your accuracy is gone - but that's pretty obvious.)


Hah, I'm making a note of this; I've never read it articulated so well. Thanks for sharing.


"[The trick to life isn't] just about living forever. The trick is still living with yourself forever."

Moderated by  BB Player, casinitaly 

Piano Acc. & Gift Items in
Piano World's Online Store
In PianoSupplies.com ,(a division of Piano World) our online store for piano and music gifts and accessories, party goods, tuning equipment, piano moving equipment, benches, lamps Caster Cups and more.


Free Shipping on Jansen Artist Piano Benches
(ad)
Pearl River
Pearl River Pianos
ad
Pierce Piano Atlas


(ad)
Pianoteq
Grotrian Concert
Royal
for Pianoteq out now
What's Hot!!
Why Do You Play The Piano?
-------------------
Posting Pictures on the Forums
-------------------
Forums RULES & HELP
-------------------
ADVERTISE on Piano World
-------------------
Piano Classified Ads
New Topics - Multiple Forums
Gaveau Upright 1928-29
by Petrol. 06/24/17 10:34 PM
Grotrian Steinweg Model 100 1960s
by Petrol. 06/24/17 10:11 PM
hammer time
by David Farley. 06/24/17 08:01 PM
Roland DP-603 Gaps between keys - help!
by yenoham. 06/24/17 07:53 PM
(ad)
Sheet Music Plus
Sheet Music Plus Featured Sale
(ad)
Accu-Tuner
Sanderson Accu-Tuner
Forum Statistics
Forums44
Topics180,440
Posts2,638,809
Members88,176
Most Online15,252
Mar 21st, 2010
Check It Out!
There's a lot more to Piano World than just the forums.
Check It Out!
Visit our online store for gifts for music lovers


 
Help keep the forums up and running with a donation, any amount is appreciated!
Or by becoming a Subscribing member! Thank-you.
Donate   Subscribe
 
Our Piano Related Classified Ads
| Dealers | Tuners | Lessons | Movers | Restorations | Pianos For Sale | Sell Your Piano |

Advertise on Piano World
| Subscribe | Piano World | PianoSupplies.com | Advertise on Piano World |
| |Contact | Privacy | Legal | About Us | Site Map | Free Newsletter |


copyright 1997 - 2017 Piano World ® all rights reserved
No part of this site may be reproduced without prior written permission
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.6.0