Welcome to the Piano World Piano Forums
Over 2.5 million posts about pianos, digital pianos, and all types of keyboard instruments
Join the World's Largest Community of Piano Lovers (it's free)
It's Fun to Play the Piano ... Please Pass It On!

SEARCH
Piano Forums & Piano World
What's Hot!!
Hurricane Irma & Our Piano Friends!
--------------------
Posting Pictures on the Forums
-------------------
Forums RULES & HELP
-------------------
ADVERTISE on Piano World
(ad)
Tuning a Piano
How to Tune Pianos
(125ad)
Piano Life Saver - Dampp Chaser
Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver
(ad)
Piano Buyer Guide
Piano Buyer Spring 2017
(ad)
4th Finger Enigma Resolved!
Schumann's 4th Finger Enigma Resolved!
Who's Online Now
89 registered members (anamnesis, Andrei Kuznetsov, ArtlessArt, accordeur, 28 invisible), 1,789 guests, and 3 spiders.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
(ad)
Estonia Pianos
Estonia Pianos
Quick Links to Useful Piano & Music Resources
Our Classified Ads
Find Piano Professionals-

*Piano Dealers - Piano Stores
*Piano Tuners
*Piano Teachers
*Piano Movers
*Piano Restorations
*Piano Manufacturers

Quick Links:
*Advertise On Piano World
*Free Piano Newsletter
*Online Piano Recitals
*Piano Recitals Index
*Piano & Music Accessories
*Live Piano Venues
*Music School Listings
* Buying a Piano
*Buying A Acoustic Piano
*Buying a Digital Piano
*Pianos for Sale
*Sell Your Piano
*How Old is My Piano?
*Directory/Site Map
*Virtual Piano
*Music Word Search
*Piano Videos
*Virtual Piano Chords & Scales
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
#2067217 - 04/19/13 04:30 PM drop/check relationship  
Joined: Sep 2012
Posts: 159
musicbased Offline
Full Member
musicbased  Offline
Full Member

Joined: Sep 2012
Posts: 159
UK
I've noticed that if you set the drop very close to let off, then the checking is not quite so good under quiet playing and backing off the drop improves checking again.
What is the relationship between these two adjustments?-Is there a trade off?
Or is something else happening to improve checking by altering the drop?

(ad 800)
PTG 2017 Convention
PTG Convention 2017 St Louis
#2067236 - 04/19/13 04:59 PM Re: drop/check relationship [Re: musicbased]  
Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 1,648
kpembrook Offline
1000 Post Club Member
kpembrook  Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 1,648
Michigan
Other relevant factors could include . . .

Good friction control (centerpin friction levels, lube the knuckle, etc.)
Make sure the hammer tail is appropriately (but not radically) rough
Appropriate finesse of repetition lever spring tension.
Condition of backcheck leather.
Angle of backcheck head on wire
Checking height
Amount of aftertouch
Density/compliance of front rail punchings

You need to be clear about what your objectives are and what potential performance trade-offs you are willing to accept. A recent thread about Glen Gould's eccentricities serves to illustrate . . .


Keith Akins, RPT
Piano Technologist
USA Distributor for Isaac Cadenza hammers and Profundo Bass Strings
Supporting Piano Owners D-I-Y piano tuning and repair
#2067261 - 04/19/13 05:37 PM Re: drop/check relationship [Re: musicbased]  
Joined: Sep 2012
Posts: 159
musicbased Offline
Full Member
musicbased  Offline
Full Member

Joined: Sep 2012
Posts: 159
UK
Ok thanks Keith.

So i'm mainly working on brand new renner actions fully friction controlled.
Renner hammers, tails rough enough.Springs regulated with smooth steady rise, brand new checks, angle matched to hammers.
Checking height 13mm, aftertouch .5mm with crescendo front rail washers.


Checking is fine,It's just an observation really.
I've noticed that in general,on older actions too, if the drop is set very slightly lower, checking is better at ppp.Wondering if anyone else has any thoughts on why this might be?

I haven't seen that other thread so i don't know what you mean.
I suppose the trade off i would be willing to accept would be slightly lower drop for better checking at ppp.?
What do you think?
I was more trying to explore the reasons behind it. Perhaps then i might be in a better position to decide which is the most sensible trade off.

#2067312 - 04/19/13 08:11 PM Re: drop/check relationship [Re: musicbased]  
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 1,702
Ed Foote Offline
1000 Post Club Member
Ed Foote  Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Joined: May 2003
Posts: 1,702
Tennessee
Greetings,
The farther down the drop is set, the farther the hammer falls after escapement without hitting spring resistance. This is aiding in checking by allowing the hammer "drop velocity" to be higher, ( it has more of a "running start" before having to overcome the spring. As you said, this is only a factor on very soft play.
Regards,

(ad)
Piano & Music Accessories
piano accessories music gifts tuning and moving equipment
#2067339 - 04/19/13 09:30 PM Re: drop/check relationship [Re: musicbased]  
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 3,919
Supply Offline
3000 Post Club Member
Supply  Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 3,919
Vancouver Island, BC, Canada
0.5 mm aftertouch is very much on the slim side and may not be enough to enable positive checking on a pp blow.

#2067343 - 04/19/13 09:36 PM Re: drop/check relationship [Re: Ed Foote]  
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 928
johnlewisgrant Offline
500 Post Club Member
johnlewisgrant  Offline
500 Post Club Member

Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 928
canada
Originally Posted by Ed Foote
Greetings,
The farther down the drop is set, the farther the hammer falls after escapement without hitting spring resistance. This is aiding in checking by allowing the hammer "drop velocity" to be higher, ( it has more of a "running start" before having to overcome the spring. As you said, this is only a factor on very soft play.
Regards,


Finally, a definition of drop that works for me!!!

So, if I may, is the main purpose of drop to provide "drop velocity", as it were, which I guess would have a substantive effect on post-escapement feel? Why, I wonder, would Reblitz set the 1/16 more than let-off as an iron-clan rule? Are there other tangible effects of a larger vs. a smaller drop?

I apologize for these questions if they seem naïve.

#2067352 - 04/19/13 09:55 PM Re: drop/check relationship [Re: johnlewisgrant]  
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 1,702
Ed Foote Offline
1000 Post Club Member
Ed Foote  Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Joined: May 2003
Posts: 1,702
Tennessee
Originally Posted by johnlewisgrant

So, if I may, is the main purpose of drop to provide "drop velocity", as it were, which I guess would have a substantive effect on post-escapement feel? Why, I wonder, would Reblitz set the 1/16 more than let-off as an iron-clan rule? Are there other tangible effects of a larger vs. a smaller drop?


Greetings,
Something must stop the repetition lever. The purpose of the drop is to keep the hammer out of the string excursion zone. As far as why Reblitz specified that dimension, I don't know. I have gotten good responses by setting the drop and the let-off to the same distance. There may be more insurance available with a lower drop, as extra pressure on the key will raise an unchecked hammer a slight bit. It is worth keeping in mind that the lower the drop, the earlier in the keystroke the pianist encounters the spring, causing more effort at pianissimo playing.
Another consideration is that the simultaneous contact of the tender and drop screw creates a feel to escapement that many prefer to a staggered contact. For this to happen, the geometry has to be very tightly controlled.
Regards,

#2067430 - 04/20/13 02:47 AM Re: drop/check relationship [Re: musicbased]  
Joined: Sep 2012
Posts: 159
musicbased Offline
Full Member
musicbased  Offline
Full Member

Joined: Sep 2012
Posts: 159
UK
Thanks for the replies,that makes sense.
Very helpful as always Ed!..

#2067455 - 04/20/13 05:10 AM Re: drop/check relationship [Re: Supply]  
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 9,230
Olek Offline
9000 Post Club Member
Olek  Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 9,230
France
Originally Posted by Supply
0.5 mm aftertouch is very much on the slim side and may not be enough to enable positive checking on a pp blow.


Yes , with somehow firm punchings particularely. If the intention is to have the strongest tone it is OK but other parameters may suffer (the tone may be hard and a little noisy, as the hammer impact is stronger, and heard sooner before tge tone appears.

Those kind of regulations are typically corrected by the use of thicker jack cushion felt, that is then locking the whippen spring . Nevertheless the hammer check is then compromised where the tails are the shorter and the hammers heavier .. Low mediums.

But the touch and feel of an old not well rebuild action can be made firmer with that trick , I have seen used to sell old grands ... Power sensation at the key, plus stronger tone with the white front punchings.

Using firm punchings in old pianos is a long time known trick, was done here with one white felt (harder usually) and ne red (soft) together. Worked perfectly as long the 20 mm punchings had some quality felt, but today they are often done in low resiliency, medium grade felt and the sensations are so so (plus they pack soon )

The keybed, keys, and action have to be not too sonorous to use firm punchings , a colleague use the opposite , with polyurethane foam punchings to avoid impact noises (asked by a recording studio first)

There is a trade off to find there, depending of the tonal behavior of the piano mostly...


Professional of the profession.
Foo Foo specialist
I wish to add some kind and sensitive phrase but nothing comes to mind.!
#2067457 - 04/20/13 05:17 AM Re: drop/check relationship [Re: Ed Foote]  
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 9,230
Olek Offline
9000 Post Club Member
Olek  Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 9,230
France
Originally Posted by Ed Foote
Originally Posted by johnlewisgrant

So, if I may, is the main purpose of drop to provide "drop velocity", as it were, which I guess would have a substantive effect on post-escapement feel? Why, I wonder, would Reblitz set the 1/16 more than let-off as an iron-clan rule? Are there other tangible effects of a larger vs. a smaller drop?


Greetings,
Something must stop the repetition lever. The purpose of the drop is to keep the hammer out of the string excursion zone. As far as why Reblitz specified that dimension, I don't know. I have gotten good responses by setting the drop and the let-off to the same distance. There may be more insurance available with a lower drop, as extra pressure on the key will raise an unchecked hammer a slight bit. It is worth keeping in mind that the lower the drop, the earlier in the keystroke the pianist encounters the spring, causing more effort at pianissimo playing.
Another consideration is that the simultaneous contact of the tender and drop screw creates a feel to escapement that many prefer to a staggered contact. For this to happen, the geometry has to be very tightly controlled.
Regards,


Hello it have to do with the control at piano nuances, better raise of friction on the knuckle (particularly if the action is overcentering 3 mm ir more) the jack is compressed on its cushion, the moment it begin to move for letoff is better perceived with the 2 mm drop. It sort of say to the finger the letoff is coming...

drop just sync with letoff but the jack is back of its static position when playing.

Last edited by Olek; 04/20/13 05:25 AM.

Professional of the profession.
Foo Foo specialist
I wish to add some kind and sensitive phrase but nothing comes to mind.!
#2067473 - 04/20/13 06:25 AM Re: drop/check relationship [Re: musicbased]  
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 3,087
Mark Cerisano Offline
3000 Post Club Member
Mark Cerisano  Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 3,087
Montreal, Quebec, Canada
In my experience, with a given close letoff and appropriate rep. spring tension, too much drop means the key has to rise more before the jack resets, which affects repetition negatively. Too little drop and double striking may occur on soft blows, caused partly by the hammer not checking. And since the hammer has to "drop" a certain distance before it is checked, less drop means less efficient checking.


Mark Cerisano, RPT, B.Sc.(Mech.Eng), Dip.Ed.(Music)
www.howtotunepianos.com
#2067555 - 04/20/13 10:14 AM Re: drop/check relationship [Re: musicbased]  
Joined: Sep 2012
Posts: 159
musicbased Offline
Full Member
musicbased  Offline
Full Member

Joined: Sep 2012
Posts: 159
UK
Hello Isaac, just wondering,what do you mean when you say "Those kind of regulations are typically corrected by the use of thicker jack cushion felt, that is then locking the whippen spring"?
Why would a regulation with a firm punching need correcting?-I love the crisp feel of actions with the firm crescendo punchings. I find them to give maximum power, which can then be controlled. I haven't noticed any problems with more impact noise, but perhaps i've been lucky!
I much prefer them to spongy wishy washy ones!
Yes, i don't always set aftertouch that small though, it depends on the piano, but the firm punchings certainly allow a more precise aftertouch and regulation.
Maybe i misunderstood what you meant though..:)


Moderated by  Piano World 

Piano Acc. & Gift Items in
Piano World's Online Store
In PianoSupplies.com ,(a division of Piano World)
our online store for piano and music gifts and accessories, Digital Piano Dolly, party goods, tuning equipment, piano moving equipment, benches, lamps Caster Cups and more.


Free Shipping* on Jansen Artist Piano Benches, Cocoweb Piano Lamps, Hidrau Hydraulic Piano Benches
(*free shipping within contiguous U.S. only)
(ad)
Pearl River
Pearl River Pianos
(ad)
Pianoteq
PianoTeq 6 Out now
(ad)
Lindeblad Piano
Lindeblad Piano Restorations and sales
ad
Pierce Piano Atlas


New Topics - Multiple Forums
When people think the composer is someone else
by Mark_C. 09/25/17 06:48 PM
Anyone who likes Chopin (Noct 9 opus 1) but intimidated
by piano_primo_1. 09/25/17 05:51 PM
The Fourth
by Goof. 09/25/17 05:18 PM
The Secret Life of Pianos
by Grandman. 09/25/17 02:32 PM
What makes me play too loudly?
by Beemer. 09/25/17 08:21 AM
Forum Statistics
Forums44
Topics182,019
Posts2,660,111
Members88,889
Most Online15,252
Mar 21st, 2010
(ad)
Accu-Tuner
Sanderson Accu-Tuner
Check It Out!
There's a lot more to Piano World than just the forums.
Click Here to
Explore The Rest of Piano World!!
Visit our online store for gifts for music lovers


 
Help keep the forums up and running with a donation, any amount is appreciated!
Or by becoming a Subscribing member! Thank-you.
Donate   Subscribe
 
Our Piano Related Classified Ads
| Dealers | Tuners | Lessons | Movers | Restorations | Pianos For Sale | Sell Your Piano |

Advertise on Piano World
| Subscribe | Piano World | PianoSupplies.com | Advertise on Piano World |
| |Contact | Privacy | Legal | About Us | Site Map | Free Newsletter |


copyright 1997 - 2017 Piano World ® all rights reserved
No part of this site may be reproduced without prior written permission
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.6.0