Piano World Home Page Forums Our Most Popular Forums Adult Beginners Forum Can we kick some people off the Quarterly Recitals already??

I think the richness of the ABF recitals (themed ones included) comes from the variety of piano levels that the listener can find in them. On the other hand, probably I wouldn’t feel comfortable if my submission had to be categorized according to my skills or experience on the piano.

Just my two cents

It's easy to tell newbies that they SHOULDN'T be intimidated but it's not that easy for some to make the jump into playing without comparison. The e-citals are wonderful events and the variety is a pleasure to listen to. In my teacher's adult group we have piano parties several times a year and the newest members still are nervous and feel inadequate in performing. It's a process.

Could it be useful to have a "first recital" recital to initiate and reward people for their first efforts? We are currently offering variations of recitals already, why not one that is geared specifically to the true beginners?

I like that idea very much - though I think the intimidation factor will still come into play - we've got one lovely true beginner who after only 3 MONTHS of lessons, is already playing better than I do after 3 years!

Speaking from a software viewpoint: I didn't write the original software that runs the recitals - that was Mahlzeit. But I have made some minor changes and moved it to the Piano World servers. I think we can consider it "mature" now and I would hate to make changes at this point. The software pretty much runs itself, with Monica doing the work of calling for submissions, zipping up the files, and generating the recital posts. I would be reluctant to make any significant changes.

But it would be easy to introduce an additional recital, and run it with the same software and in the same way. Call it the "intermediate" or the "true beginner" or whatever, but as long as there is a volunteer to do what Monica does for the current recital it should work just fine. Separate it from the current recitals by a month.

If we do decide to introduce another recital, instead of voting to decide who plays where and running the risk of hurt feelings and misunderstandings, I think it would be better for each person to decide for themselves where they belong. It would self-police after a while I think, as long as we can come up with some clear language to help people decide in which recital to participate.

I don't think that we should segregate by years of experience, because that is so meaningless for adults. A better way is to decide on a list of pieces and skills that we can use as a loosely defined boundary. For instance, if you are still playing from a method book, then you should participate in the beginner recital. But once you progress to the Moonlight Sonata movement or Bach's C major prelude then you should consider moving to the intermediate. Maybe we can ask the help of the Piano Teacher's Forum in coming up with a set of pieces and skills to use as a boundary that would work for classical and non-classical.

I like the idea of another recital. There is room - look at the themed recitals run by Rostosky and Wayne. They are doing it without software, just youtube submissions, and without a set schedule, but so far it is working. And the piano bar always attracts a lot of attention.

If we do introduce another recital, I'm sure it will take some time to settle down. Each recital will be smaller that what we have now, which might be a good thing. And we may be able to create a more welcoming environment for the true beginners among us.

Sam

I would leave it as it is.I can't believe that segregating people into groups is going to help, it may even be counterproductive.One of the great things about this group is it's inclusive, non competitive, all are welcome attitude.

I do think the forum title is a slight misnomer.It probably should read something like "Beginners and improvers forum".If you had to be a true adult beginner to post here then the forum would probably become a shadow of it's former self.

Can you kick me off please? Not because I'm not a beginner (OK, I'm not I'm late intermediate) ... but because that red dot is a killer

Wow this is a hot topic! I'm a true beginner but I was only, honestly intimidated by the 5-11 year olds I had to be in a live recital with 3 weeks ago. Though that red dot is also intimidating, I look forward to hearing constructive criticism from all you fine ladies and gents. I come here every day now to see what you guys post. That piano bar is awesome! Even though I'm not savvy and eloquent enough to really share my thoughts on technical issues, I admire all the levels of piano playing that you guys do. it inspires me to practice knowing that in maybe 3 or so years I'd be able to play what I've heard some of you guys play. Anyway...I really look forward to submitting my first ABF recital piece and hearing everyone's contributions. This is a lovely and friendly community and I think that we shouldn't think it's some kind of competition. It is a merely a showcase of our journey towards getting better.

I agree about the problem as stated here, and I like the proposed solution, provided that it really does become a 'first recital only' space.

I'd propose two simple, easily verified rules for participation in this new recital:

1) First-time e-cital participants *only*.
2) Has been playing for one year or less.

Adult restarters may or may not be included, but perhaps then we should put some kind of limit on the level of playing they had previously attained. This is probably best gauged by looking at the kind of music they got started with as an adult. I like the idea of "method books in, repertoire out". But I realize that not all beginners necessarily follow a method book. Perhaps they have a teacher who likes to take a different aproach, or perhaps they are a self-learner who really only got into it to play ragtime (or Bach, or Tori Amos songs, for all I care), and they jumped straight to that. Some guidance from piano teachers might indeed be useful here.

The drawbacks of this approach are basically the same drawbacks we have in the current system: even if you control for time since the first step was taken, there's no accounting for the speed at which people progress. Results will vary widely (though nowhere near as widely as they do now), and there will inevitably still be some comparing going on.

The benefits are clear, though:

1) There will be less participants, so those who wish to do so can easily give very in-depth feedback on each submission.

2) Though results *will* inevitably vary, the gap between the fastest burner and the most recent beginner will be vastly smaller, thus less intimidating.

3) By reserving a space specifically for those who are doing this for the first time, we would assure that there can be very little dispute over who gets to submit here, and who moved on to the 'regular' Recital.

Given the 'less participants' aspect, this recital might not have to be quarterly. Maybe twice a year would suffice (December, June?). Those who join the forum on, say, January 15, and who qualify for the first timers' Recital but still want to share something sooner, would still be free to participate in the February or May edition of the Quarterly. Those with cold feet could wait it out.

I would be willing to take on the role of 'kick-off person' (a.k.a. the Monica K. equivalent of whatever we'd end up calling this thing).

What do others think?

So I understand the reticence of real beginner's posting their efforts, though personally I am very very careful to adjust my comments relative to the music and the level of playing ability.

Now, if some complete beginner decides they are going to record a completely inappropriate piece like a Chopin Ballade for their first attempt I'm going to call them out on that. Ooops, that was Sam Rose and he completely wowed us with an amazing performance that a beginner should have been five+ years away from ...

... which is really my point. Would having some sort of division help? Do you think it would be helpful as a beginner to have your best performance, with warts and wrinkles, of Schumann's "Melody" only to find another complete beginner has posted an amazing performance of Chopin's Ballade #1.

Let's keep things the way they are. Those who catch Monica's post first, get there first, those who submit at 9pm on the day before are last and the rest of us fall in between.

Looks like I'm coming late to this party. fwiw, here are my thoughts.

Short version: It ain't broke; don't fix it.

Longer version: As Mr_Super-Hunky said, we revisit this topic regularly, hash it out at great length, but somehow always keep coming back to the same conclusion: The current format is the best of a bunch of imperfect options. While I appreciate the concern that motivated this thread, and I *really* would like to see more 'true beginners' participate in the recitals, I don't see the proposed solutions as being practical. In particular, controlling who gets grouped where in the recital queue would not be easy with the current software, and I'm not sure I'd want to put the time into doing it. (i.e., I'd have to go through manually and edit each individual submission to "bump" them to the end, and I'd have to figure out what order to do that to get people in the right groups. I'm not that smart.)

However, the idea of hosting a separate "True Beginner" recital has merit and would be very easy to do. As Sam S. noted, we could use the current software; just create a new recital with the appropriate name. I like Saranoya's idea of using easily defined, objective criteria for participation (no previous participation in any e-cital, playing time less than 1 year--though we'd probably want to include restarters?). The only snag is that I suspect such a recital would attract a much smaller number of participants, perhaps too small to be viable. I imagine it would only make sense to have it once or twice a year. It may be worth holding an informal poll and asking people to raise their internet hands if they would submit to such a True Beginner recital.

Mr. Super-Hunky,
I think you missed the gist of my suggestion. It wasn't to rehash the creation or separation or renaming. As you say, the result of that rehashing is predictable. The suggestion is to start topics that you think are relevant to Intermediate level players and see if there is any energy in those discussions (eg: Intermediates: polyrhythms, Intermediates: comping singers, Intermediates: mordents and more, or just pile them all into one super topic: Intermediate topics). If those topics take off with a life of their own, the administrators and others might see a need for a separate forum. If there isn't any life to separate Intermediate level thread discussions, there isn't much need for a separate forum.

As for the comments by others about a separate recital, it is an idea worth considering. However, it would be small. Most true beginners have a hard time finding their way around the forum, recording, and uploading, and may not even find a true beginner recital before they are up and out of that group. There are always a few first submitters. Putting them in their own small recital has its pluses and minuses.

It may encourage two or three more to submit. The question becomes whether it is worth the extra work for two or three more? The number of listeners would likely go way down. How many intermediates are going to sign up to listen to ten beginners playing beginner pieces? There is no reward for the listener, certainly not the casual listener. With the intermediates segregated out, they have little incentive to listen and comment.

Contrast that to the current recital where the beginners are mixed in. Beginner pieces tend to be short, so the listener only has a brief time of exposure to beginner music before something more palatable comes up on the player. With so many experienced players listening, the beginners tend to get many more comments. So pluses and minuses, and I'm not sure it is clear that the positives win out.

If I may, I think that a "true beginner-only" recital would make not very proficient people like myself stand out even more... With things as they are now, I can still say to myself "well most of them are not true beginners anyway!"

This is not a competition, so I don't agree with the main idea. And I do not agree with the idea of doing a recital for "true begginers".
The spirit of ABF recitals is perfect. Do not spoil it.

"First online recital" would be a clear delimiter, but "pieces they have played" wouldn't, I don't think. I think its bias is to classical pieces, and I don't play any at all, and have no intention of ever doing so. For me one of the reasons the ABF is comfortable is because it keeps the classical "bias" to a minimum. We play an incredible range of genres, so I can play a sheet music version of Tuxedo Junction, and Inlanding can improv some swing, and jazzwee can record a live performance of his jazz band and Monica can play Einaudi, AND we have Sam S and Sam Rose and everyone play great classical pieces. And Mel can find composers most of us have never heard of, which is way cool.

The "non-classical" forum has not caught on, I think, because it hasn't got the draw of comfort - there's not a snowball's chance I'd post a sheet music version of Tuxedo Junction there, tho sometimes folks will post Joplin. But the community spirit that's here isn't there. And for me, it was the word "beginner" that made me look

So I really don't want a delimiter that biases this forum to classical, and I really really really think that "pieces they've played" would do so. When you're playing non-classical pieces the difficulty of the piece depends entirely on the performer. And, again, even with classical, there's a judgement call involved - maybe someone has attempted the first movement of Moonlight, but do they play it as a true beginner would, or as a professional would?

So "first online recital" I'd be fine with (or do we exclude people who posted their first online piece in the piano bar, or on youtube?) but not a delimiter by particular pieces.

Again, just me, of course.

Cathy

Cathy (Jotur) I understand your point, except that I don't see how "pieces they've played" sounds like a classical bias. In any event - it seems the more we talk about it the more see that folks are generally pretty happy with things as they are

Well, I think because Tuxedo Junction in sheet music is not likely to be one of the "pieces they've played" criteria Maybe even Joplin Entertainer wouldn't be, tho that's more likely. Would River Runs in You be one? I don't play those, either. But - Minuet in G, yeah, that would probably be listed. The first movement of Moonlight, or Fur Elise. But if someone had only played from your Melody Bober jazz books? For me that might be a likely scenario. I just think the most common "pieces they've played" are classical - otherwise, we're all over the map, so to speak.

But I could be wrong. I have been before

Cathy

Ok, I had to go back and re-read the first posts about the "true beginner's recital" to refresh my memory.

I understand what you mean -and yes, I think such a list would lean heavily on classics or "very popular standars".

I also think making a list would be super tricky - even if it included lots of popular songs, there are so many levels and books with "easy versions" we'd be endlessly clarifying "which version".

Wow... this has gone off in some interesting directions that I wouldn't have anticipated. That was the whole point though.

Some replies to your replies...

First, I'm wishing I had not over-played the subject line and the opening sentences. A bunch of people responded to those as though I really wanted to vote people out! I'm definitely NOT in favor of voting anyone out of anything (within PW/ABF that is) under any circumstances.

Secondly, my point was really regarding the quarterly recitals and encouraging beginners to participate. Anything about ABF more generally, to me anyway, is a totally separate topic and distracts from having a conversation about beginners in the recitals.

I agree w/ SandTiger (although I had to sleep on it!) re: keeping things simple, and being as thoughtful as possible about different people's feelings.

For me, I'd be pleased as punch to be voted to the "Senior Circuit". Conversely, if I achieved a high level of skill and still wasn't voted in (or out, whatever), I wouldn't have bruised feelings about it either. Others wouldn't see it the same way, and still others would be put off by any whiff of competitive spirit injected. I get that, and agree.

For some who suggested I look at my progress, etc. differently -- my suggestions and thoughts aren't really about me. I'm trying to look at the big picture, not just at my own personal feelings.


I really love the suggestion of an additional recital, using the same exact software, as Sam S suggests, but on a slightly different schedule.

Under the mantras of "keep it simple" and "keep it welcoming":

• Use the self-selection method. Anyone who feels like they'd like to share their efforts in the online recital setting, but would like to be more amongst "beginner beginners", could participate.
• No criteria re: prior participation, experience, and so on. I wouldn't want to exclude anyone from something named the "first recital recital" who would otherwise not yet be up for submitting to the existing "been there, done that, recital".
• I would hope that any "true" beginner (Diana for instance, as self-identified in this thread) would feel comfortable in the new recital, but would also feel equally comfortable to post in the existing recital if desired. This may be easier stated as a goal vs. achieved.
• No "rules" per se. If someone does the "beginner beginner" and then realizes they feel ready to do the big one after all, then do both in that quarter -- no problem.
• No guidelines re: "pieces" and so on... The recital would have its own life and evolve naturally as its participants wish.

As Sam points out below...



I couldn't have said it better -- and this is soooooo much better than what I had suggested initially.




I think small is good in this case. If the net effect were to essentially split the existing recital, that would be a bad thing. I'd be just as opposed as anyone else in that case.


Fortunately, being an all volunteer force here, that can be determined simply based on the willingness of those who would choose to invest their time in it.



I don't see it that way, and I hope we'll have the chance to find out. I think there is a healthy block of folks on the AOTW thread who love to be willfully positive despite all evidence to the contrary. I bet they would turn out in spades!


My $.02 worth is that this is something to chew on for a while.

Some food for thought though -- Doesn't the current status quo of pieces/songs and quality thereof indicate that the recitals (not just quarterly) are at such a level that they are inherently not comfortable for true beginners to participate?

Continuing to debate, poke, prod, and discuss ways to give them ("us" actually, since I consider myself mostly in this group still) a special spot for sharing their efforts is a worthy endeavor!

Back to the broader forum question briefly:


I think there is a very simple reason for this, which is:

This is a true community. Why would we want to split up this community for the sake of something as trivial as our differing piano skills?

Ironic, eh?

Yes it is ironic. Ironic in the fact that the person who originally started this thread referred to the seasoned members as OCD and wanted to kick them out of the recital because they were getting too good. Only kidding though...(sorta).

Funny thing is Tallguy, I can clearly remember your request in the last recital for members to give you only real, helpful feedback. No fluffy BS. So I honored your request and listened to your entire performance very carefully. I listened to it twice actually and then gave you my honest feedback at length in order to offer constructive feedback while providing you with positive reinforcement.

If we are to take your suggestion and toss the seasoned members, then the constructive feedback that you seeking won't be there because,...well,...you tossed us.

Now that's what I call ironic! Eh?

Saranoya - Just let me say this. My wife played a piece o` Chopin with a fast bit in the middle. People loved to hear it. She played the fast bit twice as slow as most; speed was difficult for her (arthritis had not been diagnosed then). She got her grade 8 theory and used it well. She was a good teacher to many. . . . and did paid playing work in many public places.